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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 6:55 am 
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3 Deuce Webber

Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:01 am
Posts: 93
Location: Detroit, MI
Car Model*:
If anyone remembers me mentioning chugging going on in the engine, I tracked it down to the fuel pump. Holding a socket extension to the head of the fuel pump the noise coming from it was loud and in perfect time with the chugging. I replaced the fuel pump, believing that the cam on the pump might be questionable.

Alas, no difference, but it's definitely coming from that area. I can still feel it in the fuel pump. Can anyone guide me in fixing this problem? Is it an internal engine deal?

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 Post subject: noise
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:10 am 
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3 Deuce Webber

Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:12 pm
Posts: 51
Location: Dunsmuir, Calif
Car Model*:
Have you noticed it effecting the car's performance, not as much pick-up/power? If that's the case, it might be the camshaft eccentric wearing off due to using motor oil w/o the ZINC additive (ZZDP). If you're not using a zinc additive oil, the lifters and camshaft will eventually go flat as well as other metal-to-metal rubbing/contact part areas. You might also check to see if the dip stick tube is loose or has moved slightly allowing the dip stick to come in contact with on of the crankshaft counterweights; pull the dip stick out with the engine running. Has the noise diminished or gone away? Just some thoughts...

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 Post subject: Re: noise
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:29 am 
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Supercharged
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Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2002 9:20 pm
Posts: 12435
Location: Fircrest, WA
Car Model*: 82 Ramcharger, 76 D100
WoodyB wrote:
If you're not using a zinc additive oil, the lifters and camshaft will eventually go flat as well as other metal-to-metal rubbing/contact part areas.


Not true. See SlantsixDan's post HERE. I have never used a zddp additive in any motor I have ever owned. I have never had a lobe of any sort wipe out on the camshaft. I also use synthetic oil in my motors with no bad effects.

Now, any chance that the fuel pump was installed with the pump arm below the cam instead of on top of it? Was the motor ever run extremely starved for oil? Was something dropped into the lifter gallery and is clattering around directly above the fuel pump lobe? Sticky or collapsed lifter above the fuel pump arm (I think you have an 80 Volare, I don't believe that would have hydraulic lifters, but maybe a late built engine would?)?


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 Post subject: engine noise
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:01 pm 
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3 Deuce Webber

Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:12 pm
Posts: 51
Location: Dunsmuir, Calif
Car Model*:
I always find it best to read and make as much of an educated GUESS as we can, armed with the best information at hand. My own personal experience plays into most of what I say based on just that, personal/obsevational experience, not just reading 1-2 articles or hear-say from one person or another. The above mentioned 'problem area' is sometimes not as easy to diagnose and sometimes by the time the culprit has been accurately identified, it might be too late, sometimes causing serious parts damage and major expense(s). With this in mind (and not to get into any confrontation about 'who's right' one way or the other) I submit the following to those who care to be a little more informed, nothing more than that, just being more informed.

http://www.centralpastreetmachines.org/ ... 20Oil.html

http://www.zddplus.com/TechBrief12%20-% ... eak-in.pdf

http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html

http://www.macysgarage.com/myweb6/ZDDP.htm

http://www.motor.com/article.asp?article_ID=1604

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:06 pm 
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Supercharged
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Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2002 9:20 pm
Posts: 12435
Location: Fircrest, WA
Car Model*: 82 Ramcharger, 76 D100
Tell you what, as soon as I have a cam lobe wiped out in one of my solid lifter motors in which I use over the counter oils with no additives, I will post a picture and concede you are right. Until then, I am not going to use any additives.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:09 pm 
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3 Deuce Webber

Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:12 pm
Posts: 51
Location: Dunsmuir, Calif
Car Model*:
With this in mind (and not to get into any confrontation about 'who's right' one way or the other) I submit the following to those who care to be a little more informed, nothing more than that, just being more informed.

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 Post subject: Re: noise
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:23 pm 
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Board Sponsor & Contributor

Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2002 5:39 pm
Posts: 23377
Location: North America
Car Model*:
WoodyB wrote:
it might be the camshaft eccentric wearing off due to using motor oil w/o the ZINC additive (ZZDP). If you're not using a zinc additive oil, the lifters and camshaft will eventually go flat as well as other metal-to-metal rubbing/contact part areas.


None of the above is true or correct, I'm afraid. Woody, that's not meant as an attack on you personally, but this what you're guessing is just not based in reality. Fuel pump eccentric wear can indeed happen—and that has been the case since decades before ZDDP levels began being reduced in engine oil—but even if your position on the zinc/ZDDP issue weren't greatly exaggerated relative to the actual reality, fuel pump eccentric wear doesn't cause the symptom being asked about. Think carefully about the level of pressure against the eccentric at varous parts of its rotational cycle and you will probably come to understand how come. The symptom of a worn pump eccentric is insufficient fuel delivery.

The more likely cause of the clacking is that fuel pumps produced in the last "n" years have lacked the preload spring that keeps the lever arm riding on the camshaft eccentric. The fuel pump is virtually never operating at full capacity, because the carburetor doesn't consume as much fuel at a time as the pump can produce. When there's fuel left in the pump and the carburetor's inlet is closed off 'cause the float bowl is full, without the preload spring the pump's lever arm will float, and the next time the eccentric comes around it'll smack the lever arm back down to the bottom of the diaphragm pull rod. "Knock!". Sometimes the lever arm isn't angled quite the way it's supposed to be, too; I suppose this is an effect of excessive component consolidation that plagues us at every turn these days -- that can also cause pump knock.

Original poster: it's not harmful, nor is it indicative of an imminent pump failure. If you can't live with it, then try another pump or two or three until you get one that doesn't knock. If knowing it doesn't mean looming trouble is good enough for you, then just turn up the radio.

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 Post subject: Re: engine noise
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:46 pm 
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Board Sponsor & Contributor

Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2002 5:39 pm
Posts: 23377
Location: North America
Car Model*:
WoodyB wrote:
I always find it best to read and make as much of an educated GUESS as we can, armed with the best information at hand.


Oh! Is that why your linked information is largely from the pushers of engine oil additives, and internet hot rod bulletin boards where the BS flows like the Red River in early Spring?
Just askin'! Image

For those who wish to make their own choices about what constitutes "best information", keep in mind that the certification tests for the current oil service ratings (recently SM, now SN) include two different flat-tappet engines, and there's less alarmist, less commercially-biased, and more realistic discussion and primary-source links here and here (though it's festooned with unsupported-opinion comments, it contains a good deal of primary-source info from those in a position to know WTF they're saying), and here. An interesting tidbit (one of many) from that latter link: The addition of ZDDP usually results in reduced cleanliness, higher engine temperatures and more deposits. Some studies have shown that going past 1400 ppm of phosphorus will increase wear over the long term, and going above 2000 ppm will begin to break down iron and result in camshaft spalling(…), so if you are bound 'n' determined to add stuff to your engine oil because you think you are a better petrochemist, tribologist, and metallurgist in your driveway than the ones the oil companies pay very big dollars to put their very specialised educations to practical work in very well equipped laboratories, or because you gotta-just-gotta spend unnecessary money, or because Jaybob down at the racetrack said you should and you believe him on account of he's built three motors that haven't blowed up yet or for whatever reason, then at least do the necessary math and don't use too much, which is what you're doing by dumping in an entire bottle of whichever miracle mouse milk you're adding to your oil. See here.

(Also: reading more stuff does not necessarily make someone more informed. Specifically, if the stuff being read is not factually sound, reading it and believing it makes one less informed, more misinformed, and/or more confused. Facts and science trump opinions and beliefs and guesses and preferences…every single time.)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:51 pm 
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TBI Slant 6
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Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2006 12:57 pm
Posts: 207
Location: yakima wa
Car Model*:
ya i always figured, at 130000 miles, it probably plenty broken in by now, so whatever i give it is gonna be fine

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