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1984 Dodge D150 Slant 6 Engine tuning, driving?
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Author:  kxracer728 [ Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:01 am ]
Post subject:  1984 Dodge D150 Slant 6 Engine tuning, driving?

I'm a new member to this forum...I bought a 1984 Dodge D150 Slant 6 with Over Drive 4 Manual Trans in November of 2012 and have been working to get it in descent running condition. I will post some before and after pics a little later

The truck didn't have the original carburetor or a lot of the original emissions equipment that goes with the lean burn computer. What i've done is put the intake and a holley 1920 from a 72' dodge dart on the truck (the intake does not have a egr valve). I rebuilt the holley 1920 and am working with the tuning I don't have the automatic choke for the 1920 so it doesn't have a choke at this time. I have a haynes, chilton, and the 1984 OEM service manual for the truck so i've been using those as i work on the truck

I've got the truck running it seems to do OK in 1st and 2nd gear in how it moves with the engine RPMs but in 3rd it doesn't seem to move very fast. I haven't gotton it out on the highway to try out the overdrive gear
I'm not sure how the slant 6 is suppose to run i've never driven or rode in one before but it seems like it doesn't move very fast.

I ended up converting from the lean burn to the Chrysler electronic ignition system to see if that would help thinking that the lean burn wasn't adjusting the time correctly with the missing parts that it needs to work correctly...I've got the timing set a about 5 degrees before TDC how far down the timing scale should the timing advance at higher RPMs? The scale only goes to about 24 degrees from what i can tell

The carburetor holds idle fine and seems to respond correctly when you thrust the throttle the engine seems to be sound. I did a complete tune up before trying to run the truck but it just doesn't seem to move down the road quit like i think it should especially in 3rd gear it seems pretty slow and unreponsive to throttle

Any help will be appreciated...i will post some before and after pics and if possible some video of the engine running

Thanks

Author:  Ssg Pohlman [ Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:53 am ]
Post subject: 

Welcome. Lots of info here and plenty of people to help. Good to see another slant on the map (where ever you may be)

If memory serves me the timing on it should be 10* BTDC, If not a lean burn dizzy I'd check to see if you have your vacuum advance hooked up (not mentioned or does Chrysler EI use it?) I converted to GM HEI so no idea on Chrysler.

Also, when you open the hood towards the front edge on the driver side (under side of hood) should be a couple papers w codes telling about your truck. I know it's not much help w the carb etc but it will tell you your trans, axle ratio, color etc. search "oldy but goody" on here and you'll see pics of the ones I posted. I have the 833OD but w 3:55 rear so it's peppy, just not a rocket. Can't remember 3rd as I haven't driven in 9mo :(

Author:  kxracer728 [ Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:50 pm ]
Post subject: 

Thanks for the response...

The tag on the fender says 12* BTDC...the distributor that is on it is a single pickup distributor it has an adjustable vacuum pot. I will have to try and make sure that it is the mechanical advance type. I don't beleive that it is the original lean burn distributor but i'm not sure what model it actually is.

I've tried several different timing settings and when i tried 12* BTDC
it kinda would cut out and didn't run very well especially in 3rd. I used the instructions on this site to make the conversion. The truck still has the 3 port vacuum switch installed and a smog pump. I'm running the vacuum from the carb to the bottom port on the 3 port switch and then from the top port of the switch to the vacuum advance on the distributor and connecting the smog pump to the middle port.

I've played around with connecting the vacuum lines several different ways. The instructions for the conversion say to use a 2 port vacuum switch i'm wondering if i can make use of the 3 port one since it's new

I will see if i can identify the type of rear end and gear ratio

Author:  Ssg Pohlman [ Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:14 pm ]
Post subject: 

When I done my conversion I threw out every thing that went to the lean burn. I didn't have the 3port thing to begin with. Also my dizzy is hooked straight to the carb. Best way I've found to tune is to use a vacuum guage. Use it to find the correct port, someone may be able to lead you to it or even google your carb. I used the guage to find a port w no vacuum at idle and vacuum when you give it throttle. Also tuned for highest vacuum at idle. Hell the vacuum guage is useful in all kinds of warnings like valve or ring problems. I'm sure someone else will be along to add more than I have, hard to get it all in when deployed. Also look into getting the choke setup as that will save future problems. Also I don't have the smog pump as I seem to have misplaced it :twisted: then again I don't have a two port vacuum thing either as that was on some of the older cars and trucks.

Author:  Reed [ Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 1984 Dodge D150 Slant 6 Engine tuning, driving?

kxracer728 wrote:
I bought a 1984 Dodge D150 Slant 6 with Over Drive 4 Manual Trans in November of 2012 and have been working to get it in descent running condition.

What i've done is put the intake and a holley 1920 from a 72' dodge dart on the truck (the intake does not have a egr valve). I rebuilt the holley 1920 and am working with the tuning I don't have the automatic choke for the 1920 so it doesn't have a choke at this time.


You should fix this ASAP. A loose and floppy choke can lead to drive-ability problems and poor performance and fuel economy.

kxracer728 wrote:
I have a haynes, chilton, and the 1984 OEM service manual for the truck so i've been using those as i work on the truck


The Haynes and the Chilton's make good doorstops or paperweights, but I wouldn't use them for much else, especially if you have a factory service manual.

kxracer728 wrote:
I've got the truck running it seems to do OK in 1st and 2nd gear in how it moves with the engine RPMs but in 3rd it doesn't seem to move very fast. I haven't gotton it out on the highway to try out the overdrive gear
I'm not sure how the slant 6 is suppose to run i've never driven or rode in one before but it seems like it doesn't move very fast.


OK, it sounds like you need to spend some time tuning the carb and the ignition system. Read on below.

kxracer728 wrote:
I ended up converting from the lean burn to the Chrysler electronic ignition system to see if that would help thinking that the lean burn wasn't adjusting the time correctly with the missing parts that it needs to work correctly.


Smart move.


kxracer728 wrote:
I've got the timing set a about 5 degrees before TDC how far down the timing scale should the timing advance at higher RPMs? The scale only goes to about 24 degrees from what i can tell


OK. The first things you need to do are to check for timing chain stretch and check that the timing mark on the damper is showing true TDC. The outer ring on the damper can slip over time and give an incorrect reading of where your timing actually is set.

Once you have verified that your timing chain is not too stretched and the timing mark on the damper is true TDC, you need to disassemble the distributor to clean it and verify everything is working. Verify that the vacuum advance pod still holds a vacuum and clean and lubricate the mechanical advance mechanism. While you are in there, note the number stamped on the distributor governor, the type of springs installed on the mechanical advance weights, and the number stamped on the vacuum advance pod arm.

Stock slant six initial (base) timing specs varied from 5 ATDC to 16 BTDC depending on the emissions package, ignition system, and camshaft installed.

Determining your ideal base timing is not as simple as you would think. Slants generally "like" 32 degrees total mechanical advance with 8-12 degrees base advance and about 54 degrees total advance. The exact number of degrees BTDC you will set the timing depends on several variables- your cam profile and the amount of degrees of centrifugal and vacuum advance your distributor provides.

To get in the ballpark, you should pull the distributor and see the number that is stamped on the governor. A 9R governor provides 18 degrees of crankshaft timing advance, an 11R provides 22 degrees, etc... To get a rough idea of your base timing, you take the number stamped on the governor and multiply it by two, then subtract that number from 32. So, for a governor stamped 9, your base timing would be about 14 BTDC: (32-[9*2])= 14. You can advance or retard your base timing as needed to deal with different cam profiles.

While that number is the rough estimated base timing, the vacuum advance also comes into play. You need to see how many degrees the vacuum advance provides. Different vacuum advance cans provide different amounts of advance (and also apply that advance at different vacuum levels). While you have the distributor out, check if there is a number stamped on the vacuum pod arm. You will also have to multiply this number by 2 to get the number of crankshaft degrees the vacuum pod advances the timing. You want to have total spark advance of around 54 degrees. That means about 32 degrees of mechanical advance and 22 degrees of vacuum advance. You need to make sure that your base timing will not make the total spark advance get too far beyond 54 degrees when the vacuum and centrifugal advance systems are "all in."

There are numerous discussions on this board about "recurving" your distributor. Those threads have input from people much more knowledgeable than I, and give you all the info you need to determine your optimal base timing. I highly recommend searching for them and reading them.

kxracer728 wrote:
The carburetor holds idle fine and seems to respond correctly when you thrust the throttle the engine seems to be sound. I did a complete tune up before trying to run the truck but it just doesn't seem to move down the road quit like i think it should especially in 3rd gear it seems pretty slow and unreponsive to throttle

Any help will be appreciated...i will post some before and after pics and if possible some video of the engine running

Thanks


Like I said above, I recommend you (1) get the choke fixed (go straight for the Carbs Unlimited electric choke conversion discussed HERE; then (2) spend some time giving your ignition system and distributor a good cleaning and going over.

Author:  kxracer728 [ Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:00 am ]
Post subject: 

Thanks for all of the advice...i plan on keeping the truck for a long time so i will keep gradually putting time and money into it to make it better and fine tune it. I took some pics of the engine compartment but it looks like you can't post them directly to the forum that you need to have your own URL.

I will get a vacuum gauge here in the near future i can see how that would be a big benefit in fine tuning the carb and engine. I will see what i can do to stabilize the choke until i can get it setup correctly...

Thanks for the advice Reed on the distributor and timing i will need to find out what's in there and if it's working like it's suppose too. But it will take a little time to work things out this has been a project since Novemeber...

The kid i bought the truck from disconnected all of the emission and took off a lot of the original parts. He had a 2 barrel intake with an adapter plate for a 4 barrell weber carburetor that wasn't mounted correctly and had a lot of air and exhaust leaks. One of the exhaust studs was broke so i had to put a helicoil in to fix that the truck has come a long way since i bought it but still needs a lot of TLC...

He was trying to make a super six out of it and i didn't know what a super six was when i saw the ad for the truck but when i looked dodge super six up found out that it was a slant 6 with a bigger carburetor and started reading all of the good reviews about the slant 6 motor and how reliable and durable they are that's what inspired me to buy the truck and work with it...

I like working on this older stuff because it is a lot more simplified compared to the newer models and parts are a lot cheaper especially on ebay. [/img]

Author:  tlrol [ Sun Apr 28, 2013 12:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Dodge trucks...

I have a D150 with a slant and the A833 OD transmission. Best get used to staying in 1st until 15 mph, 2nd until 35 mph, and 3rd might be all the way to 55 mph or 60 mph. I have a 3.56 rear end.

The O/D is just for the flats or downhill. It DOES rock nicely at 70 mph, lol. These trucks really need a numerical high or "low gearing" rear end. Get it running good, and then think about a 3.9 or even 4.11 rear end. I have driven a D150 with a 4.11 and damn, I want that. If you go down that road then think about a Sure Grip or other traction aid in the rear end. I still get stuck on a wet blade of grass now and again...damn embarrassing...

Author:  kxracer728 [ Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:32 am ]
Post subject: 

Thanks for the input...

I noticed that it does have a taller gear range. Mine has the 3.56 rear and 8.25 axle size. I guess this type of truck doesn't have the posi traction type of rear end?

I will have to get it where it's tuned right then see how i feel about the towing power. I won't use it to pull too much...the higher gear range might be alright for me because i assume you don't have to work thru the gears as much when driving.

I'm new to the truck world so there's a lot to learn about setting up a descent running, driving, towing older model truck but this truck will be babied and just used for light to moderate stuff

Author:  Reed [ Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:28 am ]
Post subject: 

kxracer728 wrote:
Thanks for the input...

I noticed that it does have a taller gear range. Mine has the 3.56 rear and 8.25 axle size. I guess this type of truck doesn't have the posi traction type of rear end?


"Tall gears" usually indicates low numeric ratio, i.e. 3.2 or 2.7:1. 3.56:1 ratio is probably right at the beginning of what most would call "short gears", or high numeric ratio.

Dodge did build many trucks and vans with "posi traction" type rear ends. "Posi traction" is a GM marketing term. Dodge called it "limited slip." Your truck may or may not have gotten it, depending on how it was ordered or built. You can swap in a limited slip gearset from many trucks and vans and Jeeps since they all use the same 8 1/4 rear axle through about 97.

Author:  Ssg Pohlman [ Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:30 pm ]
Post subject: 

It's most likely a 3.54 rear gears which really isn't that bad. Even driving over the mtns coming home from VA the ol slant done fine. Though I am running HEI, 2bbl, and well tuned. So your results may vary. Kx, you need to locate your codes to see what you have. On the trucks it's usually on the radiator support by the batter or on the under side of the hood on driver side. The 8.25 rear is code DRA, 3.54 gears is DMD, and the limited slip is OSA. Also the 833OD is DCC. I'm still trying to figure out if there were build shots hidden in the truck some where. As for swapping gears, I'd wait till you have the engine running like silk and tuned, the 3:54 may surprise you (will when you don't know you have limited slip and it kicks sideways :twisted: ) see if you can locate the codes and post up, see what we can figure out.
Pohlman

Author:  kxracer728 [ Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:23 am ]
Post subject: 

I looked at the codes for my truck on the under side of the hood at the very top it says

Model: D1161 then has XBU then VIN #

DCC A833 4 spd Manual Trans
DMD 3.54 Axle Ratio
DRA Chry 8.25 Axle
DJB 3300# Front Axle

So it looks like mine doesn't have the limited slip upgrade...

I've made some progress in tuning the truck I took your advise Ssg Pohlman and i'm running the vacuum directly from the carb to the pot on the distributor instead of the ported switch and i tried a different vacuum port on the carb


I'm using a 1 bbl holley 1920 and it looks like it has 2 vacuum ports one according to the manual one is for the distributor and the other is for the air cleaner. I had been using the one for distributor but decided to try the other port and the truck runs better off the port that the 1920 manual says is for the air cleaner...the take off in 1st is a lot smoother and i don't feel like i have to feed it as much throttle feeling like it would stall if i didn't

I'm wondering how much range of motion the accelerator pump is suppose to have on the 1920...right now the accelerator pump shaft has about 1/8" range of motion when i did the rebuild on the carb i noticed that the return spring for the accelerator pump didn't look like the one in the parts diagram. The one in the parts diagram is more of a cone shape where the one that was in the carb has the same circular diameter and i feel like it might be restricting the accelerator pumps full range of motion which from what i can tell would be about 1/4"

I actually took the carb off a couple weeks ago and took that spring out to see how it would work without it because i could tell that you would get a fuller range of motion with the accelerator pump without it and felt like the throttle return spring returns the accelerator pump...without the return spring it shoots a lot more fuel into the carb and uses more gas i wish i would have tried the air cleaner vacuum port at that time to see if it fixed the response in 3rd. I ended up putting the spring back in because it makes the throttle response smoother and doesn't use as much gas

I wonder if the accelerator pump is suppose to be engaged thru the complete throttle motion right now mine stops at about half way?

Author:  Reed [ Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:13 am ]
Post subject: 

kxracer728 wrote:
I've made some progress in tuning the truck I took your advise Ssg Pohlman and i'm running the vacuum directly from the carb to the pot on the distributor instead of the ported switch and i tried a different vacuum port on the carb


This is wrong. The distributor vacuum advance is designed to be used with a source of PORTED vacuum. The port on the carb intended for the distributor is a PORTED vacuum source. This means it has no vacuum when the throttle is closed but full vacuum when the throttle is opened. The vacuum source for the air cleaner is a constant vacuum source and is not correct for a stock Mopar vacuum advance.

kxracer728 wrote:
I'm using a 1 bbl holley 1920 and it looks like it has 2 vacuum ports one according to the manual one is for the distributor and the other is for the air cleaner. I had been using the one for distributor but decided to try the other port and the truck runs better off the port that the 1920 manual says is for the air cleaner...the take off in 1st is a lot smoother and i don't feel like i have to feed it as much throttle feeling like it would stall if i didn't


As I said above, this is wrong. What you have done is make the vacuum advance be fully active at idle. If you are setting your base timing by disconnecting and plugging the vacuum line to the distributor, then when you reinstall the vacuum line you will be advancing the timing about ten degrees. At idle this will make the engine run smoother and appear to have more power. However, when the engine is being operated in just about any condition other than curb idle, the timing will be wrong.

Chrysler distributor vacuum advance systems are designed to be inactive at idle and then immediately start advancing as soon as the throttle is opened. This is achieved by having the vacuum advance connected to a ported vacuum source. By hooking the vacuum advance to a constant vacuum source, the timing is over-advanced at base idle and will actually retard as soon as the throttle is opened since manifold vacuum will drop. During all driving conditions except light throttle cruise the vacuum advance will be practically useless and not operating correctly.

You need to get a factory service manual for your vehicle and use it to set your timing correctly. Short term, run the vacuum advance hose form the distributor port on the carb to the distributor and bypass the OSAC valve. If your vehicle still has idle and/or driveability issues, fix them correctly.

The "three port switch" you are referring to is likely the CCEGR switch (Coolant Controlled Exhaust Gas Recirculation) which is part of the EGR system and NOT part of the ignition or AIR injection system. You need to abandon it entirely and run the vacuum from the ported port on the carb directly to the distributor vacuum advance.

kxracer728 wrote:
I'm wondering how much range of motion the accelerator pump is suppose to have on the 1920...right now the accelerator pump shaft has about 1/8" range of motion when i did the rebuild on the carb i noticed that the return spring for the accelerator pump didn't look like the one in the parts diagram. The one in the parts diagram is more of a cone shape where the one that was in the carb has the same circular diameter and i feel like it might be restricting the accelerator pumps full range of motion which from what i can tell would be about 1/4"


You assembled it wrong. I suspect you put the spring on the wrong side of the accelerator pump. It should have well over an inch of travel. Carburetor repair and tuning information and manuals are HERE. Do yourself a big favor and don;t mess with the carb any more until you have read and understood the repair information for your Holley 1920.

kxracer728 wrote:
I actually took the carb off a couple weeks ago and took that spring out to see how it would work without it because i could tell that you would get a fuller range of motion with the accelerator pump without it and felt like the throttle return spring returns the accelerator pump...without the return spring it shoots a lot more fuel into the carb and uses more gas i wish i would have tried the air cleaner vacuum port at that time to see if it fixed the response in 3rd. I ended up putting the spring back in because it makes the throttle response smoother and doesn't use as much gas


You almost had it right. See my responses above.

kxracer728 wrote:
I wonder if the accelerator pump is suppose to be engaged thru the complete throttle motion right now mine stops at about half way?


Yes, it is. See my responses above.

You have purchased someone else's aborted and unholy mess. They have done you no favors by ripping apart the stock systems and throwing a random conglomeration of parts together under the hood. The best thing you can do would be to get the motor running well in a stock configuration installing and connecting everything as indicated in the factory service manual. The distributor vacuum advance should not be hooked to the wrong port on the carb. The accelerator pump should move freely through the entire range of motion of the throttle. You need to get the choke replaced ASAP. I suspect your problems are caused by incorrectly operating timing, misadjusted mixture settings on the carb, and timing misadjustment, all working to mask the lack of a functioning choke and the driveability problems caused by the other misadjustments. Stop, take a step back, forget what you think you know, read a factory service manual, and then fix your truck correctly. If you are tuning a 1972 carb, then follow the link I provided to the carburetor operation and repair manuals. Download and read the one for the Holley 1920.

Author:  Ssg Pohlman [ Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:50 am ]
Post subject: 

Ssg Pohlman wrote:
Also my dizzy is hooked straight to the carb. Best way I've found to tune is to use a vacuum guage. Use it to find the correct port, someone may be able to lead you to it or even google your carb. I used the guage to find a port w no vacuum at idle and vacuum when you give it throttle. Also tuned for highest vacuum at idle.
Also look into getting the choke setup as that will save future problems.


Following reed on this one I'd hook up the correct port. You'll know it's wrong when you set base timing and then hook up the hose as the idle will change, indicating vacuum being applied and timing changing. I'd say it would be easier to start simple and work one problem at a time.
1st, get the choke worked out as that will throw off the fueling if not set correctly.
2nd simple enough to unhook vacuum advance and set base timing then hook the port to the correct one for your carb.
3rd, I'm going to say all carb issues(follow reed here as I run a 2bbl) idle, main jets, shooter etc. search for it here as plenty have stated their jets and shooters.
This will go a long way for the drivability and you will be pleased. Once it's set, I'm telling ya it idles so smooth and don't underestimate the slant, it's got grunt down low.
Work these out some and post back, we will help ya get there.
Pohlman

Edit: there should be more than 4codes your primary paint code should be there and maybe 2nd for two tone. Maybe get a detailed pic of your tag codes and post up. I haven't figured out my color codes yet,seem unlisted.

Author:  kxracer728 [ Wed May 01, 2013 11:23 am ]
Post subject: 

Thanks for the continuing advise Reed, Ssg

Quote:
This is wrong. The distributor vacuum advance is designed to be used with a source of PORTED vacuum. The port on the carb intended for the distributor is a PORTED vacuum source. This means it has no vacuum when the throttle is closed but full vacuum when the throttle is opened. The vacuum source for the air cleaner is a constant vacuum source and is not correct for a stock Mopar vacuum advance.


What i will end up doing is getting the 2 port vacuum switch that the lean burn conversion instructions say to use. The 3 port switch has the numbers 2 (at bottom port) D (middle port) 1 (top port) the manual says that the bottom port 2 is the vacuum source...your right Reed it is a CCEGR designed to work with the EGR system for this model. Since the 72 intake doesn't have an EGR valve and since the port is still a Cold Closed port designed to open vacuum at a certain temperture i thought that i might be able to still make use of it...

Right now i have the smog pump connected to the middle port (D) and the other 2 ports plugged. I'm wondering if i can just plug the smog pump air valve (designed to help prevent back fire upon de-accelleration) eventually i will take the smog pump off and see about making a plug where the upstream tube bolts to the head

Quote:
You assembled it wrong. I suspect you put the spring on the wrong side of the accelerator pump. It should have well over an inch of travel. Carburetor repair and tuning information and manuals are HERE. Do yourself a big favor and don;t mess with the carb any more until you have read and understood the repair information for your Holley 1920.


I used the manual from this site when i did the rebuild i put the diaphragm return spring between the main well economizer body and the accelerator pump and the other pump drive spring on the other side where the pump arm is like shown in the manual diagram...I feel like the original cone shaped spring will collapse upon itself more and may not have as much resistance and allow for a fuller range of motion than the spring that in there right now...

I went to ace hardware to see if they had some smaller cone shaped spring that would work better. The one that i bought had too much resistance though and would have made it worse. I will have to see if i can get the original spring...

Several months ago i bought a used carter BBS style carb it's probably one of the 1st style made and probably came off a 60's era car, truck because it only has a distributor vacuum port and that's it. I checked on Oreilly's website and you can still get rebuild kit's for 16.99 so i might consider rebuild that and giving it a GO...but as for the holley the only thing that seems to not be working right is the accelerator pumps range of motion and that may be just because of not having the right return spring

Quote:
You have purchased someone else's aborted and unholy mess. They have done you no favors by ripping apart the stock systems and throwing a random conglomeration of parts together under the hood.


Your right, alot of people had thought that i bought a "Curse" after they saw how jimmy rigged everything was in the engine compartment...but i told them that the truck became "Blessed" after i bought it and that it has alot of upside

I have all 3 service manuals for the truck 1984 factory service manual, chilton, haynes i wouldn't have even tried to work on the truck without them but this is the most work that i have done on a vehicle and it takes time to gain understanding and sometimes that gets worked out by doing and unfortunatly re-doing things

Quote:
1st, get the choke worked out as that will throw off the fueling if not set correctly.


I safety wired the fast idle cam to hold the choke open for now thinking that would be a temporary fix until i get the right parts for it to work corretly. I'm getting ready to purchase a vacuum gauge and timing light

Quote:
This will go a long way for the drivability and you will be pleased. Once it's set, I'm telling ya it idles so smooth and don't underestimate the slant, it's got grunt down low. Work these out some and post back, we will help ya get there. Pohlman


Yeah, it will be nice to drive it and then say "Yes, it's running like it should" but i will be patient and try and make steady progress thanks for all the info...

Author:  Ssg Pohlman [ Wed May 01, 2013 12:45 pm ]
Post subject: 

Steady progress is good. You don't climb Everest in one step...

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