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 Post subject: tiny URL
PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 10:16 am 
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Turbo EFI
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..it took that 249 character URL and made this compact 26 character URL:

http://tinyurl.com/ln7qej8

good stuff.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 10:29 am 
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Brian, interesting question!
I am not familiar how US legal rulings work, and my english is clumsy, but I would think that when new rules apply, there is always a percentage that have to be met. Something like; 'At least 92% of the motor oils made available to the public over the next five years have to meet such and such new API standards'.
My personal choise are the RedLine oils that contain 'old style' levels of ZDDP, but RedLine also provide modern lubricants meeteing the latest APIs without the old ZDDP levels, and I would expect that the sales volume of those will meet the regulations set. From what I have seen in their web catalogs, almost all oil companies have a selection of oils for 'classic vehicles', that contains ZDDP and don't meet current API standards, and I guess they will fall under that small percentage that is not covered by the ordinary legal demands.
The nanoscale discoveries are interesting, and I am sure that many similar discoveries wiil be made over the years to come.
'Common knowledge' handed down through generations from father to son, often turn out to have a sound scientific base when analyzed today. The pioneers used animal fat to lubricate the wheel axles on their 'prairie scooners', usually made by boiling some animal parts and scimming the fat. The main ingredient in the excellent lubricating and rust inhibiting product FluidFilm, is lanolin, the fatty substance in sheeps wool, and it is just one of such products.

Olaf

BTW, the giant url is now fixed, thank you for the link.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 3:34 pm 
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Quote:
'Common knowledge' handed down through generations from father to son, often turn out to have a sound scientific base when analyzed today.


:lol:

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Last edited by SlantSixDan on Sun Mar 22, 2015 11:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: to be fair...
PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 9:06 pm 
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Turbo EFI
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Dan,

I think Olaf got some slack when he said his English is not so good. I think what he meant to say was that many traditions have at least some basis in fact. Right, Olaf?

Like the religions where you can't eat pork, it was at least partly based on trichinosis, caused by parasites (worms) that were carried by the pigs. After many generations, it was "bad" to eat pork. Of course we know today it was basically because in the old old old days, it was because pigs carried this parasite and often caused a lot of problems if you ate them. We know today it's not the Almighty smiting us if we eat pork and get a parasite.

And yes, lanolin, rendered sheep fat, is still a wonderful lubricant for many things, but we've moved on to better lubes for all kinds of things.

Brian

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 Post subject: Re: to be fair...
PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 10:19 pm 
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'67 Dart 270 wrote:
Dan,
I think Olaf got some slack when he said his English is not so good.


His English is quite fine; it isn't the problem. It never has been.

Quote:
Like the religions where you can't eat pork, it was at least partly based on trichinosis


I thought I was very clever when that occurred to me when I was about 11, and I was very excited to share my "a-HA!" with the rabbi at our temple. He said "Wrong. It was never about food safety. We keep kosher because God said so, and that's it." That was the beginning of the end of my involvement with religion, but I still thought my answer seemed more reasonable, so I called up my uncle—a highly respected teaching rabbi in New York—and asked him. He said the same thing as the first rabbi I asked, just in a less-snotty way.

Quote:
we've moved on to better lubes for all kinds of things.


Exactly.

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Last edited by SlantSixDan on Sat Mar 28, 2015 12:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 11:01 pm 
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You should talk to more scientists, Dan. There are plenty of us (chemists, biologists, physicists...) who accept there is some basis to many common "old hat" sayings. Not all common knowledge sayings by any stretch, but a fair number of them.

What scientists can (usually) do is sort out which ones are bunk and which ones have some value. That is the part that is very hard to do without the scientific method.

Lou

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 11:24 pm 
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You're right, of course, Lou—my comments in this thread apply to this thread, and I stand by them: even the stuff about engine oil that was correct and scientifically sound when grandpa and dad were our age is now outdated…let alone the "common knowledge" that didn't have any basis in fact back then and hasn't improved with age.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:47 am 
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Well, back to the originally scheduled discussion. OK, here is going to be the test for newer standard ZDDP oils in my case. This is kinda like the story above of the guy used inadvertently used standard oil for break-in and left the break-in oil on the shelf.

In my recent /6 rebuild, I was in a hurry (it was 35 degrees F in the garage) and flipped the rocker shaft over in assembly. So, of course, the top end got very little oil. My son and I removed the valve cover AFTER the standard 15 minutes of fast idle, and saw it was pretty dry, 'and the truth dawned on me like a lightning bolt from the blue' so to speak. It is OK so far, after 125-150 miles. I use moly cam lube at each assembly, and liberally flood all parts with oil at assembly, filled the filter up and installed with engine inverted, etc., so that seems to have protected it. I'll let you know if anything bad develops....

So who needs lots of ZDDP at cam break-in? Heck, I don't even need oil! Or perhaps it is just the great job Doug Dutra does with re-grinding /6 lifters.

BTW to Olaf: I used 10W30 Castrol GTX and that does not appear on the list of higher ZDDP oils in the letter cited. As far as I know, it is the newer lower ZDDp stuff.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 12:32 pm 
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nm9stheham wrote:
I used 10W30 Castrol GTX and that does not appear on the list of higher ZDDP oils in the letter cited. As far as I know, it is the newer lower ZDDp stuff.


Some people get a warm fuzzy by paying $10 (or €10) for a quart (or litre) of fancy-brand oil and pouring it into a car that doesn't need it—fine, if that makes their socks roll up and down. For vastly most of us, there is no sound reason, need, or benefit to seeking and paying for specialty boutique oils. The lowest-performing oil on the shelf today is light-years ahead of the best-performing oil on the shelf when the Slant-6 was in production.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 12:54 pm 
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For what it is worth, I have never used a ZDDP additive. Whenever I break in a new motor or cam, I use straight 30 weight oil on the advice of my engine builder along with plenty of "engine break in lube." Since the late 90s, I have used this method to break in one slant six engine, a Ford 351W engine with hydraulic flat tappet lifters, and several slant six cams (solid and hydraulic lifters). All of the engines and cams are still running strong and show no signs of unusual wear. After the initial oil change intervals are done, I switch to 5W-30 synthetic oil or regular dino oil, depending on how much money I have at the time.

The only oil additive I use is Marvel Mystery Oil and the only time I used that was when I was trying to clean out a set of used hydraulic lifters that had sat around for a few years and were sticky. A pint of MMO added to the oil quieted those lifters completely after a weeks normal use.

The only thing I always make sure to verify is that the bottle of whatever oil I put in my engine has the API logo on it.

The scare about new oils needing ZDDP additives is a result of good marketing, unfortunate rumor-mongering, and people not doing the research they should before buying a product or voicing an opinion.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 2:04 pm 
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Reed wrote:
The scare about new oils needing ZDDP additives is a result of good marketing, unfortunate rumor-mongering, and people not doing the research they should before buying a product or voicing an opinion.


+1

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 7:35 pm 
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nm9stheham wrote:
Well, back to the originally scheduled discussion. OK, here is going to be the test for newer standard ZDDP oils in my case. This is kinda like the story above of the guy used inadvertently used standard oil for break-in and left the break-in oil on the shelf.

In my recent /6 rebuild, I was in a hurry (it was 35 degrees F in the garage) and flipped the rocker shaft over in assembly. So, of course, the top end got very little oil. My son and I removed the valve cover AFTER the standard 15 minutes of fast idle, and saw it was pretty dry, 'and the truth dawned on me like a lightning bolt from the blue' so to speak. It is OK so far, after 125-150 miles. I use moly cam lube at each assembly, and liberally flood all parts with oil at assembly, filled the filter up and installed with engine inverted, etc., so that seems to have protected it. I'll let you know if anything bad develops....

So who needs lots of ZDDP at cam break-in? Heck, I don't even need oil! Or perhaps it is just the great job Doug Dutra does with re-grinding /6 lifters.

BTW to Olaf: I used 10W30 Castrol GTX and that does not appear on the list of higher ZDDP oils in the letter cited. As far as I know, it is the newer lower ZDDp stuff.


I use just 10-40W oil but I save one quart to pour over the valve train right before the first firing of the motor. Like in this break in ....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNN8RMb6vlg

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 8:15 pm 
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Nicademas wrote:
I use just 10-40W


Excellent example of using a way-too-thick oil. Often this is done in the mistaken belief that thicker oil = better protection. The opposite is actually true unless the engine is whipped (worn out).

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 6:30 am 
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Speaking of break-in lubes, does anyone NOT use moly break-in lube on a cam? I see the white-ish colored stuff in a tube out there, and will use it sometimes on valvetrain parts, but my liters and cam always get moly lubed at assembly. Just curious as to what other practices are out there.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 7:26 am 
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I use Mopar cam break in lube. Looks like gear lube but smells different. I have 2 bottles from MP cams I ordered over the years and they will probably last me another 30 yrs...

If I were to guess, I would say that no break in lube is needed on cams either, with modern oils... I just use any cheap oil for new bottom end break in and nowadays I drop in 1-2 qts of semi truck oil. I change the oil and filter after 200-400 miles to get the major break in metal out of there.

Lou

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