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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 10:12 am 
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shadango wrote:
Running 30w brad Penn break in oil per the builder.


Yee. That is a severely wrong recommendation, based in mouldy old ignorance. 30-weight is inappropriately thick/heavy, exactly the opposite of what is needed in a newly-built engine with very tight clearances. Probably not going to ruin your engine, but not going to get it off to a healthy start, either. 5w-30, 5w-20, or 0w-30 are much more realistic choices. And there is no reason, need, or benefit to faffing around with special boutique brands of oil (Brad Penn, etc), for break-in or afterward.

This, combined with his "Hit it I mean massage it with a hammer" advice, makes me think very little of your builder.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 11:44 am 
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SlantSixDan wrote:
shadango wrote:
Running 30w brad Penn break in oil per the builder.


Yee. That is a severely wrong recommendation, based in mouldy old ignorance. 30-weight is inappropriately thick/heavy, exactly the opposite of what is needed in a newly-built engine with very tight clearances. Probably not going to ruin your engine, but not going to get it off to a healthy start, either. 5w-30, 5w-20, or 0w-30 are much more realistic choices. And there is no reason, need, or benefit to faffing around with special boutique brands of oil (Brad Penn, etc), for break-in or afterward.

This, combined with his "Hit it I mean massage it with a hammer" advice, makes me think very little of your builder.


Well, I dont want to encourage any kind of "best oil" debate....

I have been around on different motor vehicle forums for a while now....and any oil discussion usually gets nasty.....LOL....

After 20 years of riding my motorcycle , for instance, I have tried different routes.....the OEM oil, AMSOIL, other brands and now Rotella. In one bike that I ran OEM oil and nothing else, I had a timing chain and sprockets wear out and jump......this next bike have tried the other oils.....So far, so good. But who knows right?

I dont know where I stand on the oil....I have gotten the same advice from other Mopar folks in the business or just the hobby for decades. Others say what you say. two very different schools of thought.

And I am dedicated to neither one cause frankly I dont know. LOL

However, the builder said to use it, so I used it.....bought it from the shop he is at in fact --- specifically so he will stand behind his work.

He came highly recommended....and has been doing it for 40 years......

I do not want to get into the "I picked a crappy builder" mindset because, frankly, "crap happens" even to the best of the best. As long as he stands behind his work and makes us happy I will reserve judgement for now. Crossing my fingers that it the case.

Still, I dont know what would be considered "fair" here.....taking an engine in to someone, you sort of accept the idea that installation is all on you. When the work done is an issue that comes up, then so does the issue of who eats the work to get that work redone or fixed properly.

Hoping we can figure this out without too much pain.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 12:27 pm 
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You are out correct,stuff happens. It's how he deals with you and whether he stands by his work that will make the difference in my book. Your right,oil debates are always colourful and opinions are like belly buttons,we all have one. I know of several top builders that run the boutique oils such as Gibbs and I have seen the results of a seasons racing and I am impressed,was it the oils? Probably not solely,but they use them as part of their process to achieving great results so I'm good with them....but for a stock slant?? Probably major overkill,but I've never suffered any form of failures of oil pump gears or bearings in a slant using good off the shelf oils,it's cheap insurance.Your builder has his own ideas and that's fine,you won't kill an engine with 30w break in oil as far as I'm concerned,but I'd change it out before giving serious duty now the run in cycle has been completed. As for massaging the pan,well it ain't ideal,but what's to lose? I'll throw my hand up and say I've done it on trans pans as a temp fix. The trans had a damaged band and I just refitted the pan and gasket to get the car to a hoist to remove it a few days later. It leaked oil of course but with a gentle tap in the offending areas it did seal up,it's was just a temp fix but it did seal up...what to lose I guess...assuming that is the cause of your leak


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 Post subject: It should be...
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 5:09 pm 
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Quote:
The stinking at idle,well,what ignition are you running?


For 1980 he should have Mopar stock EI ignition.


2 things could be occurring here:

1) idle mix is too rich if it smells of gas...

2) My favorite- The other engine leaked oil on the exhaust pipe or had some blow by and now the rebuilt engine is burning that crap off of or out of the tailpipe.... usually you see a little blue smoke out the back or it smells like burnt oil... If the tail pipe is like the usual F-body it runs under the back of the oil pan to the passenger side of the car...so if anything is leaking in that path...that could add to it...


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 Post subject: Re: It should be...
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 5:26 am 
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DusterIdiot wrote:
Quote:
The stinking at idle,well,what ignition are you running?


For 1980 he should have Mopar stock EI ignition.


2 things could be occurring here:

1) idle mix is too rich if it smells of gas...

2) My favorite- The other engine leaked oil on the exhaust pipe or had some blow by and now the rebuilt engine is burning that crap off of or out of the tailpipe.... usually you see a little blue smoke out the back or it smells like burnt oil... If the tail pipe is like the usual F-body it runs under the back of the oil pan to the passenger side of the car...so if anything is leaking in that path...that could add to it...


We have #2 for sure...the leak we are talking about does drip a little on the exhaust pipe.

But the stank I am referring to is pure exhaust......not the "good" rich exhaust smell....(I love the smell of unburnt hydrocarbons...LOL).....but I do believe it is due to being "rich"......not rotten egg or anything...just stink.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 5:29 am 
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SlantSteve wrote:
You are out correct,stuff happens. It's how he deals with you and whether he stands by his work that will make the difference in my book. Your right,oil debates are always colourful and opinions are like belly buttons,we all have one. I know of several top builders that run the boutique oils such as Gibbs and I have seen the results of a seasons racing and I am impressed,was it the oils? Probably not solely,but they use them as part of their process to achieving great results so I'm good with them....but for a stock slant?? Probably major overkill,but I've never suffered any form of failures of oil pump gears or bearings in a slant using good off the shelf oils,it's cheap insurance.Your builder has his own ideas and that's fine,you won't kill an engine with 30w break in oil as far as I'm concerned,but I'd change it out before giving serious duty now the run in cycle has been completed. As for massaging the pan,well it ain't ideal,but what's to lose? I'll throw my hand up and say I've done it on trans pans as a temp fix. The trans had a damaged band and I just refitted the pan and gasket to get the car to a hoist to remove it a few days later. It leaked oil of course but with a gentle tap in the offending areas it did seal up,it's was just a temp fix but it did seal up...what to lose I guess...assuming that is the cause of your leak


re: oil -- yeah, we were told to use it for break in , then change it out for more of the same for the first 100 miles. Then change THAT out with a regular oil, and adding ZDDP if possible. I already add that to my barracuda's oil and I have hyrdaulics in that but run a pretty aggressive cam....figure it couldnt hurt. So far so good.

re: the pan -- if massaging the pan cured the leak, well, its cured. Then again, if massaging it causes a WORSE leak, then I force the hand. Would prefer the BUILDER to take that gamble if possible....


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 3:33 pm 
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shadango wrote:
figure it couldnt hurt.


Yes, it certainly can. But never let a good myth get in the way of facts! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The air cleaner you were looking for has been listed here if you're still looking.

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 Post subject: air cleaner
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 10:51 am 
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ooooh, Dan, that's a mint one! Somebody will snap that up.

b

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2016 5:39 am 
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SlantSixDan wrote:
shadango wrote:
figure it couldnt hurt.


Yes, it certainly can. But never let a good myth get in the way of facts! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


Are you saying that ZDDP is not necessary and /or will hurt a fresh rebuild of an older engine like ours or that having it in the barracuda with the hydraulic cam is problematic?

Been running it for years now because it seemed the consensus was that oil in the old days had zddp (or at least the elements of it) in it when flat tappets were the norm......and nowadays the opposite is true. And the ZDDP helps keep the wear down on the lobes/tappets, even on hyrdaulic cars with big cams.

If there is vast research that shows this is false, I will gladly stop adding it.....


Last edited by shadango on Sat Nov 12, 2016 5:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2016 5:42 am 
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EFI Slant 6

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SlantSixDan wrote:

The air cleaner you were looking for has been listed here if you're still looking.


Thanks! But we finally got one last week......meant to post a photo but got swamped.

It is definately "patina-ed" but thats ok, it gives the son a great resto project to tinker with! We were just ecstatic to find one and get it in the car. We also got a 318 BBD with it as well as a flexible duct with it......can the flexible ducts be redone somehow? This one we got as well as the one we had has some rot to the fabric.

Image[/URL]


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2016 5:51 am 
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shadango wrote:
SO aside from the new starter going in, we installed a NOS carb that a wonderful member here sent to us. It made a HUGE difference!

We then also went over the intake/exhaust bolts to look for any possible leaks etc. and installed the slant 6 air cleaner assembly that lincparts sold us.....

The thing runs and drives so much better. And that is with timning at 12 at the lash still set at .020 cold!

She still "stinks".....too rich I guess.....we were hooking up a vac gauge to see what we could see and snapped off the nipple on the 3 way vacuum gizmo on the manifold......are those available anywhere??

WE used a miracle bonding agent and actually reattached it and it is holding but want to replace it....it shows signs of being broken before.....

Anyways, we have 16 on the vac gauge......pretty steady though it does move a little as the idle changes a little on its own....not hunting, but little upticks in the idle.

Not sure how much vac we should have with this cam?

But man, the NOS carb made a huge difference.....no more stalling at idle in gear, good pickup now, good kickdown.....like night and day! I guess the other carb we were using needs redone after all. A project for another day I guess. LOL

Still have the oil leak in my mind and stewing on that....in the meantime, tweaks here and there to deal with.....and DRIVING IT!


Posting some pics of the NOS carb we got!
Image[/URL]

Image[/URL]

Image[/URL]

Image[/URL]

Image[/URL]


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2016 2:12 pm 
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shadango wrote:
Are you saying that ZDDP is not necessary and /or will hurt a fresh rebuild of an older engine like ours


Yes, and that's all I'm going to say about it in this thread—I don't do religious wars any more. There've been enough threads with enough reliable data and info on the subject, and the internet's such a big place with so many people providing so many opinions of such a wide range of quality and up-to-dateness, that you get to pick which ones make you feel good.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2016 3:56 pm 
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What Dan is getting at is the new oils, provided that have the API sunburst logo, are designed to be backwards compatible to include flat tappet engines in regular daily street driver use. The ZDDP additive thing is a myth. I have been running slant sixes without ZDDP for a couple decades as well as the flat tappet hydraulic lifter 351W in my daily driver van and I have had no problems with cam lobes being wiped out. But don't take my word for it, do the research for yourself.

For a broken in daily driver, 5W-30 or lighter is a fine choice. On a fresh motor I would have no problems running 0w-30 or even 0w-20.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2016 4:47 am 
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Whether you are a ZDDP fan or not,I would consider your position regarding your new slant regarding any warranty issues. If there is a problem and the builder has recomended a ZDDP oil and he finds out you have ignored his instruction it may give him some wriggle room to get out of a claim. Imagine if you strip an oil pump drive gear and he gets wind that you've not followed his oil recommendation!! I'd get his approval to run whatever oil you decide upon.
It's not going to hurt running ZDDP,we have these oils commonly available over here and I have no concern about risking any damage IF ZDDP is at modest/sensible levels. Now that's not to say you cant do without them in your more modern blend oils,most slants run very very modest spring pressures and 25 year old technology slow cam ramps,probably slower than many newer flat tappet stock engines,it's obviously not an issue to use these oils as other members have suggested. With your 318 with a decent cam? Your call,you have had success with whatever oil you are presently using,if I were you I'd view my decision in a similar manner to the oil choices you made with your motor bike after the chains were replaced.

Cams wipe out for lots of reasons,guys can blame the oils,it's easy. But these things are getting old,machine work at the factories was average at best,good enough to make do with mild cams and moderate springs. I have seen a friend wipe a lobe off a BBC a while back,he is a good mechanic who works in avaition ,second cam,same lobe went,with ZDDP oil. I'm sure the outcome would have been the same with any oil he ran since the issue was a misaligned lifter bore,it worked with a mild cam but the stick he was running was a pretty aggressive solid. Lifter bores get sleeved and corrected and no more problem,he did still run the same ZDDP oil.

Modern performance/aggressive cams need a good build to make them work, a 351 SBF I'm building for my current project is aimed at making mid 500's and turning 7500 with a solid cam,I would not dream of using a cam like this one without the best of everything going for it. Bullet cams ground and nitrided it,I'm running EDM oiling holes in the lifters to supply a constant oil supply to the lobes whilst they are above .050" lift and the lifter bores have been sleeved,yes they were out ,oiling mods carried out and a light well selected valve train. Yes I'll be running a boutique oil in it,for me it's part of the recipe of making it live.

The average guy may flick through the comp catalogue,but some OTS piece of junk with similar specs,throw the cam in with worn mis alaigned lifter bores and a lubrication system that is painfully lacking toss in a can of possum fat oil additive and get all upset when it wipes a lobe...has to be this modern crap oil ...sure it is...so ill just use another tin of possum fat to make up for the crap oil....way to go,more is always better ,right??Oil choice is like choosing any other part for an engine...does NASCAR use cast Pistons,Comp boxed cams,or Wally World OTS oils? Does MR average dude use custom Pistons,key way groove lifters ,billet cranks or boutique racing oils ? It's all a balanced choice made by the end user/builder.
Have a read in Bob is the Oil Guy forums "BITOG" or yellow bullet,there are "some" good discussions there to help YOU make YOUR decision.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:52 pm 
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Well, a bit of an update as far as the oil leak issues we found we had.

Back around Chirstmas time the engine rebuilder took a look at the engine in the car and changed out the oil pan gasket and the main seal.

We have been driving it around now and then weather permitting etc.

Found we still had some leaks/seepage.

Seepage at the cylinder head to block seam......which means he didnt use RTV on the lower edge of the head gasket as the gurus here do.

We may have had a leak at the alternator bracket bolts at the block, so I redid those and used sealant this time...DUH. LOL

Was HOPING that was the bulk of the leak.

Not so.

We still have the seapage at the head, which is possible gathering and dribbling down the bloock sides, making a filmy mess....I could live with that.....I may try cleaing that whole area and sealing as I have heard others talk about here.....what is the best goop to use and how is the best way to clean the surface? I have never had luck with RTV and oil leaks...

We also found a small drip at the front lower edge of the oil pan...appears to be coming from where the cork gasket and the rubber piece meets.....its a tiny drop at idle , once warmed up....hardly noticeable.....the drip forms more rapidly when the engine revs as in normal driving......its a SLOOOOOOOOOOW drip...maybe a drop every minute or two.....it drips to the k member and then collects on the front lip where it builds up into a small puddle....then drips ever so slowly when shut off to the ground......parking downhill obviously makes the leak appear worse as the k member drains.

I guess I can try the clean-and-goop method on this leak as well since its smallish.....and we can mostly get to it....I hate to have the shop redo the entire pan again given it seems like many other folks have issues sealing these things up.

Gonna have to watch the leakage and seepage closely and see what we can find.

I know its just small leak, but the mess it makes underneath from the oil puddling and blowing back to stuff sucks.

Will have a link to a video of the drip soon....


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