Can harmonic balance be pressed on with crank bolt & washers, or would it need to be heated and if so how hot.

What is best way to read lifter lift with dial indicator; use push rod with some kind of cap with dimple so pointer is stable in one spot, or some other method?

_________________
67' Dart GT Convertible; the old Chrysler Corp.
82' LeBaron Convertible; the new Chrysler Corp
07' 300 C AWD; Now by Fiat, the old new Chrysler LLC

I use a stock pushrod (shorter - 170?) held parallel to the lifter motion axis.

Lou

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Home of Slant6-powered fun machines

You pull off with a puller (my harbor freight one is on it's 10th year of rebuilds and junkyard damper pulls)...
Then you can use either a damper tool to press it back on, put together a kit like in Wes's thread, or use a bolt and stack of washers
(but you will need to block the #1 piston and be a little butch to get it on tightly and not roll the crank over...).

Unless you are turning the damper over for a rebuild, don't heat the damper... but the time you get the hub hot enough to matter
you'll lose the rubber... you only do this for the crank gear pull and install...



The same bushings can be gotten in a Mr. Gasket kit (#85B)for Chevy gears and are typically on the rack at O'Reilly's or most local shops with a
"performance" department... you might compare pricing as Mr Gasket got acquired by Holley and pricing went up a few years back... that being said
Summit will charge a shipping and a handling fee for their bushing set that will increase the price a fair bit as well...(of course if you buy over $100
of crap they might have a deal that would give free handling/etc...)



This method works on an engine with the head removed... with the head still on, you can use a stock 225 pushrod... but a standard magnetic base
for the dial indicator has no proper flat spot to stay stable... so you will either need to make a fixture by forming and drilling a thick piece of steel
that can use a couple of valve cover bolt holes to keep it stable (or I have a buddy that has one that bolts to the rocker bar stands)... or use the clamp
or magnetic base with the locking flexible arm to get the angle right to match the axis of motion of the lifter and pushrod....
Stock pushrods (and even some smith brothers pushrods have a dimple in the cup).

Good luck!

Look up the part number for the cam bushings and check amazon and ebay. Rockauto might even have it.

_________________
Ed
64 Valiant 225 / 904 / 42:1 manual steering / 9" drum brakes

I have magnetic base robo arm device, and solid bolt on plate. I'll rent a damper pull/install kit.

Cam bushings, found Mr Gasket listed above, also found Comp Cam has a set that goes in a 13/23" hole with degree range 0, 2, 4, 6, 8* (colored coded), 3/8" hole Mr G degree range 0*, 3, 5, 7

Not listing drill size in description but looking a lot like the above two sets are Jegs rendition of these parts

Would both work, giving a choice of odd or even degree selection?

This morning I'll degree what I have. Its been busy around here lately. Had Gravel Doctor come and recondition my driveway for last two days, and put in a French drain to relive spring thaw water problem in front of lower garage

_________________
67' Dart GT Convertible; the old Chrysler Corp.

82' LeBaron Convertible; the new Chrysler Corp

07' 300 C AWD; Now by Fiat, the old new Chrysler LLC

Of course, head on. So use a stock 225 pushrod. Thanks, DI.

You can use odd or even. 1 deg will not make a difference. If you are close, do 1 deg more advance (99 instead of 101 CL).

Lou

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Home of Slant6-powered fun machines

This degreeing thing makes me feel stupid, even more than differential equations did 44 years ago

After more than several tries to set degree wheel to true TDC, I finally got it. I read directions, they seamed straight forward, but turning the crank, and getting it right alluded me. Very frustrating. I checked my work several times, even felt top of piston with small screwdriver such the apex could be felt. So I confident I know where TDC is, and marked by zero on wheel.

After reading tutorial on line by Craine Cams, and using intake opening & closing method @ 0.050" the following was measured:

@ .050" piston moving up yielded 8*; cam card calls for 13* a difference of 5*

@ .050" piston moving down yielded 45*; cam card call for 41* a difference of 4*

Dial indicator returned to zero after the above measurements, so my dial indicator was very close to push rod axis. I can't tell how much oil film on cam & top of lifter skewed the readings if at all.

Top of lobe measured .316'; Cam card lists .317"

Cupped end of push rod did not have a dimple, so could be the cause of being off .001"

Looks as if cam needs to be advanced 5 degrees. I have not ordered an advance/ retard cam set yet, looks like Jeg's set of odd degree steps of 0, 1, 3, 5, 7 would be the one to use.

The timing mark on harmonic balance aligns with timing tab at 10* BTDC when piston is at TDC. This differs from previous writings on the subject. Previously I thought TDC was in line with 10* ATDC. This explains why engine liked idling when balance mark was around 1 1/4 inches to left of timing tab on timing chain cover.

Also cam card lists lobe separation 108 Lobe center lines; Intake 104, exhaust 112

_________________
67' Dart GT Convertible; the old Chrysler Corp.

82' LeBaron Convertible; the new Chrysler Corp

07' 300 C AWD; Now by Fiat, the old new Chrysler LLC

I'd go to 103 (6)............for eventual chain stretch.

_________________
Ed
64 Valiant 225 / 904 / 42:1 manual steering / 9" drum brakes

Cam timing bushings to arrive Thursday AM, at which time I'll rent puller/installer tool, pull harmonic balance, timing cover, and get to it.

One question just to be clear. Where engine turns clock-ways when looking at it from front of car, would camshaft gear need to rotated via eccentric in a counter clock ways direction about 5 degrees to advance camshaft?

I don't want to screw this up.

_________________
67' Dart GT Convertible; the old Chrysler Corp.

82' LeBaron Convertible; the new Chrysler Corp

07' 300 C AWD; Now by Fiat, the old new Chrysler LLC

I think I got this typed out correctly... (famous last words...)






That won't matter for what you are doing here. It's not that picky...



Close enough, the lobe pattern they use has been around a while, it may be a little worn...



That's lifter moving up .050 and lifter moving down .050...not piston...? ... and... is that 8 BTDC? and 41 ABDC?

OCG's data is based on .050 lifter rise off the base circle, and .050 before the lifter hits the base circle


Looks like the cam is ground with the intake lobe centerline at 104... so to hit about a 102 centerline the numbers would
line up to be 15 BTDC @ .050 tappet rise, and 39 ABDC on the other side...

so if the intake event is correct the 7 degree bushing will do the job...and if you install the eccentric or leadshot, etc...
to the passenger side of the cam peg hole it will roll the cam clockwise in relation to the cam gear and advance the cam....

That being said....



The last dynagear double roller cam gear I had was machined with 50 teeth... so using some fun stuff from geometry class 30 years back...
360 degrees in a circle or cam gear divided by 50 teeth = 7.2 degrees per tooth...(if you used a silent chain the same calc applies 360 degrees
divided by # of teeth)

If your cam gear conforms to this tooth count, if the crank stays put, you could loosen the cam gear and chain... roll the cam gear
clockwise ONE tooth, and reinstall the chain... then check your numbers again... if they conform to 15 and 39... you are done and
can get a refund on your bushing set...if the went the other way... (same calc applies if you have a different cam gear tooth count...
but that may get you close to your goal without too much other work...)


Hopefully that gives you a bit to mentally chew on until your next attempt...

Sorry misspoke, indeed first number was off of base of cam then riding up onto lobe giving 0.050" lift @ 8*BTDC



Yes 8* BTDC & 45* ABDC. Lifter moved up lobe 0.050" @ 8* BTDC riding on up to crown then down backside to point where it was 0.050" above base of cam reading of 45*ABDC.



Cam card lists intake center line at 104* so your calculation is correct as to how the cam is installed. Can you show me the math to arrive at 104* center line, and new corrected center line of 102*?

I would much rather jump a tooth on chain all day long than drill and fiddle with bushings.

There is a note engine builder made on cam card; "15* overlap at 0.050".

_________________
67' Dart GT Convertible; the old Chrysler Corp.

82' LeBaron Convertible; the new Chrysler Corp

07' 300 C AWD; Now by Fiat, the old new Chrysler LLC

I will just say one more thing, one last time. IF you are looking for more midrange and/or low end (and won't sacrifice much up top), then degree at 100 centrerine. 102 would be for more high RPM use (5000+), but you lose almost nothing by using 100. I cannot tell you how many of the knowledgeable racers have independently figured this out, and use 100 even for their high RPM motors.

Lou

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Home of Slant6-powered fun machines

If the numbers matched the .050 numbers on the cam card the intake lobe would be at 104 centerline
13 BTDC and 41 ABDC... those are the benchmark numbers to install the cam at 104 centerline (but they are happening later in rotation at 8BTDC and 45...don't worry
so much about the 45 as the lobe is a bit more tapered and not even on this side so it may be short by a degree in the event...but at least it's close)

For it to be 102 centerline the open event will be 2 degrees sooner on the rotation of the wheel at 15 BTDC clockwise rotation of the crank and degree wheel.

Close event it similar... as the event need to be 2 degrees closer to BDC so 41-2 = 39...

BTDC an ABDC happen on the same 180 degree side of the wheel... but the industry standard doesn't call your intake event 77 degrees ABDC...

So per your original numbers you are at 8 BTDC (5 degrees retarded from the cam cards 13..)... so if you advance the cam 7 degrees it will be at 15 degrees BTDC...or if you are thinking
the other way, it will happen 75 degrees ABDC...

Once you can count teeth on your gear and see if the advancing of one tooth will do the job, then you will know what to do, then check it again with your setup to see if it
falls in line.

Comp cam and a couple other companies have a nice degree wheel that shows the events on the wheel (intake and exhaust open and closed, centerline area), which makes it a bit easier to visualize what is supposed to happen during the rotation of the crank and cam...



No need to worry about this statistic for degree purposes, it doesn't have bearing on the main goal of getting the intake centerline where it should be.

The data points to reference are the intake open @ .050 and intake close @ .050.

Dart 270:


Yes, need as much low rpm grunt I can get. 90% of the time this car is driven below 3000 rpm which = 60mph. Most driving takes place around 2000 -2750 rpm, or 40 to 55 mph on secondary roads.

So DI to reach intake centerline of 100* based on actual angular measurement of intake event being 8* BTDC and 45* ABDC:

9* of advance has to be added to actual 8* = 17* BTDC
45* ABDC closing event will change by -8* = 37* ABDC

If my timing gear has 50 teeth, in this case as you said a move of one tooth = 7.2* than moving one tooth and installing a 2 degree bushing would bring a total of 9.2* which would be needed to advance enough to reach 100* centerline. Is this correct?

As far as how factory timing marks stamped into new damper, I may have to make a new mark that represents actual TDC to align with timing tab on timing chain cover, right?

_________________
67' Dart GT Convertible; the old Chrysler Corp.

82' LeBaron Convertible; the new Chrysler Corp

07' 300 C AWD; Now by Fiat, the old new Chrysler LLC

In the case of 3000 RPM and below operation, then I would make 100 deg your upper limit and accept 98-100 as an acceptable range.

Lou

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