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Coil on Plug Conversion
https://www.slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=27901		 Page 4 of 5
Author:  Matt Cramer [ Tue May 28, 2013 9:56 am ]
Post subject: 
Pierre wrote:
Dwell may be an issue. Could narrow or widen the rotor tip to adjust?

Most factory COP setups overlap the dwell on several coils at once. I don't see how you'd do that with a distributor.
Author:  Ssg Pohlman [ Tue May 28, 2013 12:07 pm ]
Post subject: 
So never having to deal w points (born 82') would using points and system voltage to trigger the cop work? Just trying to think outside the box here a bit.
Author:  Pierre [ Tue May 28, 2013 7:23 pm ]
Post subject: 
Ssg Pohlman wrote:
So never having to deal w points (born 82') would using points and system voltage to trigger the cop work? Just trying to think outside the box here a bit.


Nope. A points distributor has one set of contacts that open and close. Well the later ones depending on emission system had 2 I think... you'd have to rig a third, custom mechanism to get them to open/close at the right time, and you'd still have dwell issues.
Author:  Ssg Pohlman [ Wed May 29, 2013 12:40 am ]
Post subject: 
Pierre wrote:

Nope. A points distributor has one set of contacts that open and close. Well the later ones depending on emission system had 2 I think... you'd have to rig a third, custom mechanism to get them to open/close at the right time, and you'd still have dwell issues.


That's all that's needed for the 3 wire ones. They wire hot for charge, ground, and then the 1set of points contacts would be trigger using operating voltage of the car.

Maybe I'm thinking to crude in this, I'll research more of the EDIS and see what's there as well.
Author:  WagonsRcool [ Wed May 29, 2013 4:21 pm ]
Post subject: 
Points are crude, inaccurate, semi-reliable at best (but simple). They also couldn't handle much current before burning & failing even faster than they did. One the huge benefits of electronic ignition was the ability to switch lots more primary current- so you could have coils with much higher output.

Each COP unit would need its own switch- 6 sets of points? for for most 3-wire units that I've worked on used a 5V square wave to control it. Then you'd need advance mechnisms? ehh- go with EDIS or some-such.
Author:  Pierre [ Wed May 29, 2013 7:33 pm ]
Post subject: 
The "smart" COP coils only need low current to fire them on the "control" wire. Points are well more then capable of handling it.

You won't need 6 sets of contacts - only 3 if your doing wasted spark. You wire the "Control" wire of the complimentary cylinders in parallel. 1&6, 2&5, 3&4 fire at the same time.

Kudos for trying to be creative.... but yeah, this is a time you need to stop reinventing the wheel. Put the energy into mounting a toothed wheel and sensor and implement EDIS with a MegaJolt & Ford EDIS module. Or better yet - with a megasquirt you can run the sensor to it and have it feed the "smart" stye coils directly, no module needed.
Author:  Ssg Pohlman [ Thu May 30, 2013 4:25 am ]
Post subject: 
Pierre is tracking what I was getting at, for a bit i was thinking I hadnt painted a good enough picture.

I am with you on the not reinventing the wheel, I was just looking at other options to be different. I not only run the 225 slant 6 but I am also into it with an old 1956 chevy 235. So Im not looking to really run a full out computer but was looking into other options for spark besides points etc.

Yes most COP use a 5v pulse to trigger them, there are cases like the mitsubishi v6 that use full operating vehicle voltage (14ish) to trigger them. thats why I was thinking of using the dizzy with full voltage in on the coil wire, that would trigger each cop when needed. Im not sure if im making sense but was trying to think and busted a circuit breaker. :oops:
Author:  Pierre [ Fri Aug 16, 2013 8:50 pm ]
Post subject:  COP Install
I had reason to believe my coil pack I was using with the ford edis module was going out. I got it years ago from a junkyard intrepid - it was an oem unit. No idea how many miles were on it. Figured instead of getting another its time I put on the COP's. Wired in series, still using edis. In the future I may get the ones with built in ignitors and ditch the edis all together but that's a semi-big project, will require some mods to the megasquirt. Bracket is kind of hokey but it works well. I'll do something better when I get the other coils.

These are ford 4.6/5.4 coils. I had to cut the boot/spring because they were way too long. Only other issue was the trans dipstick. Had to bend the loop of the handle to avoid interference. It can still be removed with some minor effort.

Image
Author:  Sam Powell [ Sat Aug 17, 2013 4:54 am ]
Post subject: 
Awesome! I would like to be there some day. One step at a time though. This completely eliminates the possibility of high voltage arcing from one plug to the other. No chafing of wires against the inner fender.

What is the function of the bracket? Is it needed to support the COP's? Seems you could tie that into the valve cover bolts somehow.

Sam
Author:  Pierre [ Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:39 pm ]
Post subject: 
Sorry, bad pic. The two bright spots your seeing where the valve cover bolts would be - those are L shaped brackets that curl under the horizontal piece and pull it towards the engine so the coils don't pop out.

The boot is not very snug on the porcelain on the plug. The terminal of the coil is just a cylindrical spring that slips over the plug stud. It doesn't positively hold itself on the plug. Think like a ball point pen where the spring just slides over the tube. There's a part of the boot that flares out so the boot can flex at that point - that's big enough to center it in the plug tubes but still isn't very snug. I drove around without the brackets and some of the coils were coming loose.
Author:  Sam Powell [ Sun Aug 18, 2013 4:52 am ]
Post subject: 
Thanks, I see it now.

Sam
Author:  robertob [ Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:25 am ]
Post subject: 
Would the little motorcycle coils work instead? I did a COP conversion on an old Suzuki using those. They clip on the plugs the same way that a coil wire boot does. Available in different lengths, I can't remember what the ones I used were off of.
Author:  Matt Cramer [ Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:52 pm ]
Post subject: 
robertob wrote:
Would the little motorcycle coils work instead? I did a COP conversion on an old Suzuki using those. They clip on the plugs the same way that a coil wire boot does. Available in different lengths, I can't remember what the ones I used were off of.


Just be sure not to get them off a bike with a CDI ignition. There's a Nissan hanging around our shop that is using Honda CBR coils - I can see if I can find the part number if anyone's interested. They probably aren't as hot as the Ford coils though.
Author:  Pierre [ Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:45 pm ]
Post subject: 
So they can support themselves without any bracket eh, interesting. I'm looking at pictures... too many varieties. Thing is they look all too long for our head though. Unless those tubes are plastic instead of rubber and don't flop around? Can you give an application of the shortest ones you know about? Looks like they use the same connectors as the ford coils so it'd be an easy swap for me.

Mental note - do NOT use your timing gun to trigger off the primary side of the coil (between module/megasquirt and coil). It will trigger the light to flash but it will be unreliable and lead to funky results. I've been chasing a non-existent problem.... Ran a short plug wire between the plug and coil, clamped light on that, worked fine.
Author:  Matt Cramer [ Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:18 am ]
Post subject: 
I'm pretty sure the CBR coils are using a bracket. Never seen a coil I'd trust to just clip onto the plug with no other supports.
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