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 Post subject: modern upgrades
PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:38 pm 
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TBI Slant 6
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Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:31 am
Posts: 174
Location: Central Oklahoma
Car Model: 75valiant custom
i just re-read the modern alternator upgrade thread with interest, and it got me to thinking. can you eliminate the v-belts with a serpentine? would you want to?

i am also thinking about an electric fan, but i'm still researching that. as for the HEI upgrade, i have been happy with the solid state ignition on my california 75. would it really make a noticeable difference for a nearly completely stock vehicle? i think i may put on an electric choke.

i'm happy with my stock suspension, and disc brakes. i might go for the ford rear axle so i can have disc brakes at some point, but my rear end is in decent shape at the moment. the 75 is a noticeably improved creature over the 70 dart i had back when i was 20.

in short, my car is truly a driver, like many of yours. what i don't keep bone-stock i like to do junkyard upgrades, but i'm trying not to waste money. i drove the car to new orleans back in march of 2016, and plan to do so again next month.

EDIT: the reason i think i want an electric fan is for quicker warmups in cold weather. beyond that, my cooling system works great, even in the oklahoma summers.


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 Post subject: Re: modern upgrades
PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:20 pm 
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75valiant wrote:
i just re-read the modern alternator upgrade thread with interest, and it got me to thinking. can you eliminate the v-belts with a serpentine?


Yes, we had a young member on here some years ago who did that as an engineering school project. Unfortunately he's dead now.

Quote:
would you want to?


Only if I needed an engineering school project of that nature, or I had some special application for a Slant-6 engine that couldn't proceed without a serpentine belt for some reason. Otherwise: giant investment of time, effort, and money for no real benefit.

Quote:
i am also thinking about an electric fan, but i'm still researching that.


Read this (and the other four parts of the five-part series).

Quote:
as for the HEI upgrade, i have been happy with the solid state ignition on my california 75. would it really make a noticeable difference


Yes! Especially with a distributor carefully recurved by DusterIdiot.

Quote:
i may put on an electric choke.


№ 1274 for your '75. Another big improvement.

You might also want to put on the updated transducer-type EGR valve, EGV-490. And if your '75 is a California car, and it's still in California, then it probably still has (and has to keep having) a catalytic converter; a thoughtfully picked new converter as part of a general exhaust system upgrade can make a real nice improvement.

Quote:
i'm happy with my stock suspension, and disc brakes.


You can make the brakes considerably better and safer, without spending much money. Swap on (direct bolt-on) a set of '76 calipers (2.75" pistons rather than 2.6") and a set of smaller-bore rear wheel cylinders as described here (with links).

Quote:
i might go for the ford rear axle so i can have disc brakes at some point


Not cost-effective

Quote:
the reason i think i want an electric fan is for quicker warmups in cold weather


You won't get substantially quicker warmup in cold weather with an electric fan. Remember, before the engine's up to operating temp the thermostat's closed, so it doesn't matter how much air is pulled across the radiator. A clutch fan is a much more cost-effective upgrade, because it's less expensive to buy, easier to install, doesn't require ancillary upgrades (to the electrical system), and gives you virtually all the fuel savings you can wring out of fan changes.

Other upgrades worth considering are here -- even though your '75 already has 3-point seatbelts, they're primitive and obnoxious compared to the much better newer ones that would be an easy bolt-in. And lights, of course, LOL, see here and here and here (the photos of the headlight beams on the road in both articles are very poor, but the text is very descriptive and accurate) and here and here.

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Last edited by SlantSixDan on Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: modern upgrades
PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:47 pm 
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Posts: 16451
Location: Blacksburg, VA
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I second pretty much all of Dan's comments and recommendations.

No reason for serpentine. Bling/brag factor would be the only gain. Make sure your pulleys are lined up (all in a plane), of course, for the V-belt setup. Getting the brakes to have better front-rear proportioning is really a big gain, and Dan's mods should get you close. I have driven a few 73-75 Darts and most of them were scary (rears lock way early). Make sure to measure the front caliper piston size yourself, or some rebuild place might just give you 75-down 2.6" diam pistons anyway... Rear discs are nice, but yes, expensive in the end. Doctordiff.com has some nice kits if you want to spend the coin.

I am an elec fan guy, but Dan is right that the clutch fan will get you nearly all of the gains and is likely simpler and more reliable.

Probably the biggest handling/performance gain you could do would be to put on modern tires on wider rims. This changes the look of course, and can run you some substantial $$ and time to do it right.

Enjoy driving your Slant 6 Dart! Not too many of us do long haul trips with these things anymore... I love it, but it ain't for everyone.

Lou

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 Post subject: Re: modern upgrades
PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:04 pm 
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TBI Slant 6
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Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:31 am
Posts: 174
Location: Central Oklahoma
Car Model: 75valiant custom
thanks, fellas!

i haven't had time to read the links yet, so my thoughts are likely to change based on them. as for the electric fan, i understand that the water is trapped in the block until the thermostat opens, but isn't the heat soak impeded by having a solid fan pulling cold air across the engine, versus still air? that was my thinking on the warmup. i have modern cars, too, and am amazed by how quickly they heat up and perfectly hold operating temperature. i figured it was because of the electric fan waiting patiently to do its job. my mom's old station wagon had a fan clutch; i thought it spun all the time but backed off at highway speeds. don't they spin at idle? incidentally, my car has no shroud. the fan keeps me scared but cautious.

yes, my 75 still has its original catalytic converter. i even put a new air pump on it when mine started squealing, because i didn't want to destroy the cat. i am in oklahoma, but since my car generally runs good and all the systems are still functional, i have chosen not to disable them. experience has taught me that although i'm not bad under the shade tree, i am not an automotive engineer nor a master tech, and most people impair rather than improve their economy and performance when they go to tinkering with things they only THINK they know about. my car with about 68K on the clock runs circles around my poor old 70 dart, which had been overheated, abused, and had over 100k on it before i got it 35 years ago. and the 75 has california emissions, no less! :)

the one (long term) concern i have about the rear end is, when i got the car, it had been run with different size tires on it, and despite having serviced the rear end, it still makes a noticeable "CLANK" when i put it in reverse. therefore, i'm thinking at some point down the road, i may have to redo the rear axle, hence the ford swap comments. this is long term, and only when needed.

looking forward to reading the links!

EDIT: fascinating stuff about the rear brakes! and i do remember having read the fan article some time back, i think that is what gave me the idea about electric fans. if a person upgrades to a modern alternator, can the ammeter still work? i like the look of stock, and definitely want to monitor the charging system. i finally got the interior done, and the paint buffed out so pretty that i have decided to defer straightening a few minor dings and repainting. with the new interior and vinyl top, it looks really sharp!

will an idle lock fan fit on a slant? it sounds good, if it would fit. a shroud would be nice for extra safety, too.


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 Post subject: Re: modern upgrades
PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:52 pm 
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TBI Slant 6
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Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:31 am
Posts: 174
Location: Central Oklahoma
Car Model: 75valiant custom
Dart270 wrote:
Probably the biggest handling/performance gain you could do would be to put on modern tires on wider rims. This changes the look of course, and can run you some substantial $$ and time to do it right.



my rims are in unbelievably good condition, and as long as i can still get my 185/75/14's in a 70k pattern from discount tire, i'm sticking with stock (currently about $48/ ea, unmounted). yes, it looks (charmingly) dorky, and yes, better traction is possible, but i just can't bring myself to change perfectly good tires, wheels, and hubcaps. one of my painful quirks. i bought 5 back in 2013, (ruined one), and they are starting to get some weather checking, so i will probably buy a new set this next summer. oddly enough, i shopped for them day before yesterday.

now, this is all subject to change if i have some unforeseen casualty, such as bent rims. however, i am reluctant to get away from stock. i've had custom in the past, and it just didn't do it for me. fuel economy drops, speedo off, yada yada. i'm just painfully tight in some ways.

EDIT: my tires are called hankook optimos, 724. i have them showing blackwalls, for that authentic, cheapskate look.


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 Post subject: Re: modern upgrades
PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:08 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2002 5:39 pm
Posts: 24233
Location: North America
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75valiant wrote:
i understand that the water is trapped in the block until the thermostat opens, but isn't the heat soak impeded by having a solid fan pulling cold air across the engine


No. There is no air-cooling to speak of in a water-cooled engine.

Quote:
i have modern cars, too, and am amazed by how quickly they heat up and perfectly hold operating temperature. i figured it was because of the electric fan waiting patiently to do its job.


It's because engine coolant volumes have been reduced and thermostat temperatures increased to get the engine up to temperature (and emissions under control) as quickly as possible, and heaters and defoggers have been iteratively engineered for better and faster performance to meet safety requirements and evolving consumer demand. Some of the improvements have been relatively simple: much shorter coolant path from the engine to the heater, much better exclusion of cold air leaks from the passenger compartment, much less exposed metal in the passenger compartment.

Quote:
my mom's old station wagon had a fan clutch; i thought it spun all the time but backed off at highway speeds. don't they spin at idle?


Please go read the link.

Quote:
yes, my 75 still has its original catalytic converter.


It could very well be due (or past due) for replacement. Non-feedback fuel systems and catalytic converters are not a happy mix; if you want to plough through a deep dive as to why not, read this document (click the blue "Get this one" button, then "PDF")—Vehicle № 511 is a Slant-6 '75 Duster, and take note of PDF page 12, 28, and 37. You can probably pick up quite a bit of performance and economy by putting in a new cat (meow!). Again, thoughtful selection is very important to avoid wasting your money, time, and effort. Many aftermarket cats (meow!) are a waste of money because they are very short-lived even behind clean-running fuel-injected engines; throw dirty carbureted-old-car exhaust at them and they die quickly. On the other hand, it's not hard to buy a cat (meow!) that is up to the task and will hold up well in this difficult service. Which exact one to pick depends on whether you'll be upgrading other parts of the exhaust system at the same time. A larger (2-1/4") headpipe and new cat (meow!) will net the biggest improvement over what you have now; you can put in a better muffler and tailpipe—those, too, should be thoughtfully chosen—either at the same time or later on.

If you aren't required to have a cat (meow!) on your '75 where you live, a less expensive option would be to replace it with plain pipe.

Quote:
the one (long term) concern i have about the rear end is, when i got the car, it had been run with different size tires on it, and despite having serviced the rear end, it still makes a noticeable "CLANK" when i put it in reverse.


Very common on these cars. If no other noises or symptoms suggest there might be a problem, don't worry about it. Make sure there's enough of the right kind of oil in the rear axle and keep driving.

Quote:
i do remember having read the fan article some time back


Y'sure? It goes into detail answering your question about how fan clutches work.

Quote:
i think that is what gave me the idea about electric fans


As the author of the article, I sort of doubt it.

Quote:
if a person upgrades to a modern alternator, can the ammeter still work?


Not safely. But an ammeter update can be done very cleanly without any hacks. How much it costs depends on whether you do the work yourself or have it done for you. Places like Redline Gauge (lousy website; guess they're too busy doing actual work) or Williamson's Instruments can do a stealth conversion of stock ammeter to voltmeter for "it must've come that way from the factory!" appearance as seen on this '62 Plymouth (also custom never-available-from-factory oil pressure gauge in place of the clock, and engine temp gauge calibrated with numbers instead of just "C" and "H"). I've also seen people successfully buy a Sunpro voltmeter, tear it apart, and mount the old ammeter face over it with excellent, clean results. See here and here.

Quote:
will an idle lock fan fit on a slant?


Arrrrrrgh, please go read the durned link!

Quote:
a shroud would be nice for extra safety, too.


It should not be difficult to find a stock '73-'76 Slant-6 A-body fan shroud.

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 Post subject: Re: modern upgrades
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:43 am 
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TBI Slant 6
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Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:31 am
Posts: 174
Location: Central Oklahoma
Car Model: 75valiant custom
Dan, could you hit me with that fan blade link one more time? ;) yes, I did read it, and you were the one that gave me the idea about the electric fan, so either I am a poor reader or your writing skills aren't quite as good as your technical skills. LOL!

So what do I look for when shopping for an idle lock fan? Are there any vehicles that would have this as a direct bolt-on? I love the brake upgrade and the electric choke, those are early on the list. I also have plans for some lighting upgrades as shown in the links you provided, but I will probably do that after my trip. Not because I don't want to now, but because time is short. Some of these things I will likely do when what I have breaks.

I suspect that when I read the article that you wrote, I already had an electric fan in my mind and interpreted your remarks as confirmation of my preconceived ideas. Your position is pretty clear to me at this point! Love all the help you guys do, this site has always been amazing for me. We'll keep begging for advice as time and money permit.

Sorry for the voice to text translation, I am out on the road. Not driving, just not at my desk


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 Post subject: Re: modern upgrades
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:32 am 
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Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2002 5:39 pm
Posts: 24233
Location: North America
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Affordable fan prospects to fit your car will come from '87-'94 Toyota pickups and 4Runners, like this one. When you're shopping, make sure you get a fan set up to spin the correct direction (clockwise as viewed from the front); take note of the direction the blade curve faces and make sure it matches.

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Too many people who were born on third base actually believe they've hit a triple.

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