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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 10:25 am 
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The '63-up heads have a redesigned counterbore at the top of the spark plug hole; the spark plug tube itself seals the plug, and if you use the washer it moves the electrodes out of their intended position in the combustion chamber and interferes with heat transfer from the plug to the head. The '60-'62 heads don't have the special counterbore and need to use the plug gaskets. This is factory info; following it has always produced best results for me. The idea is to prevent the plug from running too hot; following factory procedure and going without the ring washer means you can dial in just a tetch more timing 'cause your engine is just a tetch less prone to pinging, well, you're that much ahead.

From a 1962 Chrysler MTSC book:

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From a 1963 Chrysler MTSC book:

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The factory TSB discussing the cylinder head changes for '63 and the importance of using the gaskets in '60-'62 heads and not using the gaskets in '63-up heads is here.

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Last edited by SlantSixDan on Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:50 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:10 am 
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Interesting. Does this mean we should be cutting the gaskets off our replacement plugs on all 63-74 heads? Crazy.

Lou

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:31 am 
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Dart270 wrote:
Interesting. Does this mean we should be cutting the gaskets off our replacement plugs on all 63-74 heads?


I don't cut them off, I grab 'em with a pair of pliers and thread them off.

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Last edited by SlantSixDan on Sat Aug 12, 2006 6:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:38 pm 
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Fair enough. I've never done it, but always have good idle and such when well tuned. Hafta try some of those long reach plugs and/or cutting gaskets sometime...

Lou

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:07 pm 
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OK...so I've been tinkering with the car again today, and this is what happened. I had a lot of trouble starting it at first, and after trying several times I stopped and cleaned off the spark plugs--#1 was oily again--cleaned between the points, checked all the plug wire connections and tried again. It finally sputtered to life soon after all that.

I let it warm up and idle for a bit, and it was pretty much the same as it's been-- a little rough, but OK. At my uncle's recommendation, I poured a bottle of STP oil treatment into the engine since he said that might help any oil leaks and possibly stop the oil burning, which would cut down on the exhaust smoke. I let that nestle into the engine for a minute, then started her up again.

Immediately I noticed the engine was starting easier and running a little smoother. Seemed like it smoked less, too, at first. So I take let it idle for awhile and rev it to get the oil treatment flowing into everything then take it for a test ride. It runs rough, most noticeably at very slow speeds and when stopped but in drive, but nothing awful. The worst problem it has is that it's really underpowered going uphill.

I take it to the nearest gas station, about 2 miles away--it makes the drive just fine despite the low power uphill. I fill the tank and add a bottle of gas treatment for good measure, thinking maybe some fresh gas might make it run smoother. Doesn't seem to help much. I keep driving, pushing the engine to high revs to keep everything flowing into the system and hopefully working through whatever gunk might be stopping things up.

During all this driving, the smoke varies. Sometimes it's barely noticeable or not there at all, sometimes it's pretty thick, so I still have no idea what it really is or what's causing it. I also got a bottle of stuff to add to the transmission fluid, but I can't figure out where I pour it into. There's a picture of this in my service manual, but it doesn't say where exactly this is, and it looks like a view from under the car. So...how do I do that?

I should mention that the transmission fluid leak was nearly nonexistent today. I feel like I'm getting closer to having the car smooth, and I'm going to try to get a timing light soon since I think timing has to be part of the reason it's running rough. I just don't know what to do about the smoke.

OK...and for those of you who are really ambtious, I also have these questions:

1) I finally figured out where the temp. sending unit is and I think I have to replace it (my fuel and temp gauges currently don't work). I cleaned off the wire contact and it didn't help, then I tried to pull it out, and coolant started dripping as it loosened, so I just tightened it back up. Do I have to drain the coolant to replace this? And is there anything else I should try before I definitely replace it?

2) Where is the fuel level sending unit and how do I test/fix/replace it? I assume it's in/around the tank?

Of course this stuff is not as important as having the engine running smoothly, but I'd like to make these improvements as I go along. Again, I really appreciate the help. Thanks for helping a rookie!

--Phil


Last edited by 60seneca on Tue Aug 23, 2005 9:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:27 pm 
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You have to drain the coolant some to remove the sender. The gas sending unit is in the tank. Empty the tank and use a BRASS drift to remove the lock ring. Another thing to check for is to make sure the grounding strap is present....its a piece of metal that goes between the nipple on the tank, over a piece of rubber hose, to the metal fuel line by the rear frame rail. The smoke your experiencing might either be the oil rings stuck, or (my bet) the umbrella seals on the valve stems are non-existent, allowing oil to be sucked down past the valve guides into the combustion chamber. Sounds like it would be a Good Thing to replace all gaskets on the engine, transmission, rear, etc. Also is the breather cap (what you remove to put oil in) clean? Since you (I think) have a draft tube to pull gasses out of the crank case, this might be critical on cars so equipped. Do a carb rebuild if you haven't already (didn't read the whole post, so maybe you did). Don't be pushing that old engine to hard until you get everything worked out first. Its a big car with a small engine, so its already working pretty hard! Old car with low miles=multitude of problems...sometimes more so than an old car with high miles.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 5:13 pm 
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Phil:

Stop listening to your uncle. Motor snot ("STP") is not helping, it's hurting your efforts. It is for squeezing a last couple of weeks out of an engine so whipped (used up, worn out) that the clearances are too large, causing oil burning. That is not your situation. Your situation is opposite: The engine has sat unused for a long time. Carbon and sludge and assorted other gunk is sticking the parts (e.g. the rings) that are supposed to be able to move freely to create their seal. And, seals and gaskets that are supposed to be soft and pliable have hardened and cracked with age—causing leaks. You will probably wind up needing to disassemble, thoroughly clean and reassemble the engine with new gaskets, seals and rings. You may avoid this if you play your cards right, but STP is a step in the wrong direction.

You can try flushing the crud out of the engine, but it is not a quickie 5-minute deal with a can of "fast flush", unless what you're trying to do is finish-off the engine so you have an excuse to rebuild it. Here is the procedure I use.

Get those books I mentioned previously and start reading! Very few things "pull" out of or off of the assembled engine, and the temp sender is not one of them. You will save yourself a great deal of time, heartache and money if you will spend some time getting up to speed on the basics before guessing at how to remove or fix something.

Finally: can you please try breaking up future posts into paragraphs separated by spaces (as I've done with this post), each one dealing with one topic? It will make it a great deal easier for us to read what you have to say, therefore making it easier for us to help you.

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Last edited by SlantSixDan on Tue Aug 23, 2005 9:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 5:17 pm 
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Eric W wrote:
You have to drain the coolant some to remove the sender.


Why? Leave the cap on, and be quick about it and you will hardly lose a drop.

D/W

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 5:24 pm 
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Just get the carb/timing/rough running problem out of the way and drive the damn thing! That is my recommendation. The smoke may or may not become a non-issue, but yes, you will probably at some point want to replace the valve seals. The important thing is that you don't let the plugs foul out (may have to put a higher heat range plug in that #1 hole) and keep tabs on the oil level, don't let it get more than a quart low.

Oh, yeah, pull out the trans dipstick (passenger side, rear of engine compartment), get a transmission funnel, and put the TransX in there. Make sure you do not overfill the trans, check it with the parking brake securely on and/or the wheels chocked idling hot in neutral. (I do hope you bought TransX because many of the other snake oil-type products do not work).

D/W

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 7:45 pm 
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Have the valves been PROPERLEY adjusted yet???
HyperValiant

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 9:14 pm 
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OK...I'm going to try to catch up on addressing everyone's questions and issues here...

SlantSixDan:
First let me thank you for being one of the most helpful board members who has responded to my questions. I have both of those books on order, should receive them within a week or so. I'm looking forward to poring over something more detailed and focused on old cars than the first book I read--don't laugh now--Auto Repair for Dummies. Hey--I thought it did a decent job of explaining the basics.

Unfortunately it looks like I got, as Dennis put it, "an F for the day." I'll be more careful with my uncle's advice from now on. He assured me that it wouldn't hurt the engine and that if it didn't help, so what, you just change the oil again. What you say about STP not being right for this engine's situation of course makes perfectly logical sense to me, I just figured it wouldn't hurt anything and for $3 I'd give it a try. Perhaps I was wrong about the "not hurting anything part"... Is this such a step in the wrong direction that I should try to change the oil ASAP?

Sorry if you thought I was actually trying to PULL the temp sending unit off the engine-perhaps that was a poor word choice. I slowly unscrewed it with a combo wrench with the intention of simply inspecting and maybe cleaning the thing. I expected maybe a few coolant drips but it turned out to be more than that so I screwed it back in. I consulted the service manual, of course, but it isn't very specific about this process. I realize I may seem clueless at times but I wasn't trying to physically pull the thing off.

I tried the link you included for engine flushing but I don't think it goes to the right place. Let me know if that's the case or if I'm doing something wrong. I'm definitely NOT trying to finish the engine and rebuild it despite what it may seem. I am all for flushing the engine properly and replacing all the engine gaskets as well, but I take it this is not a task for beginners and I will have to do a lot of reading before I delve into those missions.

The next steps I have planned are to get some of those Autolite plugs you mentioned and adjust the timing once I acquire a timing light. I'm pretty confident that those are both steps in the right direction (yes?). But--are they, in your opinion, the most helpful things to do in this situation? Or should I really concentrate my efforts towards learning how to eventually replace all the worn gaskets, since that seems to be the source of my problems?

Finally, I apologize for the one big paragraph of my last post--I just tried to do it quickly. I promise to separate the paragraphs from now on. I'll even go back and fix the last post.

Eric W:
Thanks for the info on the sending units. I don't understand everything you said about the fuel unit, but I'm going to read/research until I do, and only then will attempt to repair it.

As for the smoke--when I made that last post the car was smoking when I returned it to the driveway. About 45 minutes after making that post I took the car out again and gave it a good long drive, 10-15 miles, even getting it up to 50mph some of the time. It still runs with the same roughness I described before, sort of trembling lightly at low speed, BUT the smoke problem got a LOT better. I'm not closing the book on this problem, but the exhaust was doing really well after that drive.

Like I said to SlantSixDan, I'm all for replacing all these gaskets, but this is sort of a complicated job for a newbie, yes? How hard is this?

The oil breather cap is not shiny and new, but it seems pretty clean underneath. It seems like it "breathes" just fine. And the car does have a draft tube.

As for the carburetor (you're not the only one who asked) - the mechanic cleaned and rebuilt the carb in April while he was replacing the brake system. He did not replace any of the gaskets, but I haven't seen any leaks coming from the carb.

Dennis:
As you read above, I did drive the damn thing, and the driving has helped, at least with the smoke problem.

I will get new spark plugs this week, and I've definitely been keeping tabs on the oil (and transmission fluid) level. Both have remained fine during the whole time I've been working with the car.

I have my TransX and will pour it in the next chance I have to work on the car.

HyperValiant:
I guess I don't know what you mean by the valves being "properly adjusted." I'm assuming the mechanic did that when he had the valve cover off the engine and was working on it. Do you mean to say he probably didn't adjust them properly?


Now, because everybody keeps asking what's been done to the car so far, below is a brief chronology of events of what's been done since I've owned it:

April/early May: mechanic takes the car to replace the brake system. He replaced all the wheel cylinders, the master cylinder, brake hoses, springs and all the brake shoes. He fixed the parking brake and reinstalled the driveshaft, which was taken off due to the stuck parking brake. He cleaned and rebuilt the carb. He also changed the oil, added transmission fluid, flushed the coolant, and installed a new battery. I have the exhaust pipe and muffler replaced. After this the car ran for about 3 weeks and 150 miles before dying.

June: I replace the spark plugs, the air filter, and the fuel pump myself before getting the car towed to a mechanic.

July/early August: The same mechanic who did the brakes replaced the spark plugs, changed the oil twice, flushed the coolant, installed new radiator and heater hoses with new clamps, replaced the points, the drivebelt, and the exhaust manifold. He set the timing, straightened the bent pushrods, and did something to the valve springs (I can't make it out on the receipt). He also fixed the choke arm/coil. The car has run about 100 miles since I picked it up after this repair with the problems I've described in detail over the past week.

OK...I think that's everything. I look forward to everyone's replies.

--Phil


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 9:26 pm 
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Dennis Weaver endorses Champion brand spark plugs. :wink:

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 9:35 pm 
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60seneca wrote:
First let me thank you for being one of the most helpful board members who has responded to my questions.


You're welcome!

Quote:
more careful with my uncle's advice from now on. He assured me that it wouldn't hurt the engine and that if it didn't help, so what, you just change the oil again. What you say about STP not being right for this engine's situation of course makes perfectly logical sense to me, I just figured it wouldn't hurt anything and for $3 I'd give it a try. Perhaps I was wrong about the "not hurting anything part".


It's not going to insta-murder your engine, no, and you've got enough oil changes in your immediate future that I wouldn't worry specifically about getting the STP out of there.

Quote:
Sorry if you thought I was actually trying to PULL the temp sending unit off the engine-perhaps that was a poor word choice. I slowly unscrewed it with a combo wrench with the intention of simply inspecting and maybe cleaning the thing. I expected maybe a few coolant drips but it turned out to be more than that so I screwed it back in.


Oh, gotchya. Note that the temp gauge may not work even after you replace the sender. You may want to use an ohmmeter to test the sender's resistance before you proceed. The resistance spec is in the FSM (factory service manual).

Quote:
I tried the link you included for engine flushing but I don't think it goes to the right place.


Ha ha...you're right. I was trying to do too many things at one time. Try it now (back in the previous post); I've edited and fixed it.

Quote:
I am all for flushing the engine properly and replacing all the engine gaskets as well, but I take it this is not a task for beginners and I will have to do a lot of reading before I delve into those missions.


True on all counts.

Quote:
The next steps I have planned are to get some of those Autolite plugs you mentioned and adjust the timing once I acquire a timing light. I'm pretty confident that those are both steps in the right direction (yes?).


Yes, but you're going to keep experiencing heavily-oiled plugs until the cause of the oil entering the combustion chambers (probably stuck rings) is resolved.

Quote:
As for the smoke--when I made that last post the car was smoking when I returned it to the driveway. About 45 minutes after making that post I took the car out again and gave it a good long drive, 10-15 miles, even getting it up to 50mph some of the time. It still runs with the same roughness I described before, sort of trembling lightly at low speed, BUT
the smoke problem got a LOT better.


That's probably a good sign; it means you might just be able to unstick those rings.

Quote:
Like I said to SlantSixDan, I'm all for replacing all these gaskets, but this is sort of a complicated job for a newbie, yes? How hard is this?


Difficult? It's not. Thing is, disassembling and reassembling an engine to the degree necessary to clean up, re-ring and reseal requires a fair amount of special equipment and a great deal of precision. It's also not something that can usually be successfully done unless you have a good, clear idea of exactly what you're doing.

Quote:
The oil breather cap is not shiny and new, but it seems pretty clean underneath. It seems like it "breathes" just fine. And the car does have a draft tube.


Check the draft tube to make sure that it is not kinked, plugged or damaged.

Quote:
As for the carburetor (you're not the only one who asked) - the mechanic cleaned and rebuilt the carb in April while he was replacing the brake system. He did not replace any of the gaskets, but I haven't seen any leaks coming from the carb.


New gaskets come in a carburetor rebuilding kit -- I'm pretty sure your guy used them.

Quote:
As you read above, I did drive the damn thing, and the driving has helped, at least with the smoke problem.


In conjunction with flushing out the crankcase (now that you can click and see the link!), you may want to try cleaning out the top end. See Here.

Quote:
I have my TransX and will pour it in the next chance I have to work on the car.


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooo! That stuff sometimes seems to "help" worn transmissions in the short term, but it greatly accelerates and worsens seal wear. It softens-up the seals in the transmission, but makes them way too soft and swollen. In that condition, they are rapidly abraded and worn away by the metal parts they're meant to seal. Here again, as with STP, this stuff is not a fix or a cleaner or a "conditioner" -- it is meant to drag a last few hundred miles out of an old junker that is running on borrowed time.

Quote:
I guess I don't know what you mean by the valves being "properly adjusted."


This info's in the FSM. See Here for the procedure.

Quote:
I'm assuming the mechanic did that when he had the valve cover off the engine and was working on it. Do you mean to say he probably didn't adjust them properly?


He might not even have known that a pre-1981 Slant-6 requires it!

Quote:
replaced the points


You don't mention it, and he probably did it, but I have to ask: Did he also replace the ignition condenser? "Points and condenser" was a periodic maintenance replacement on pre-'73 cars, but I have known vehicle owners and even mechanics who do not replace the condenser and then spend endless time and money trying to solve lousy running and frequent dirty/burnt points.

Quote:
straightened the bent pushrods


Y'know, I meant to comment on this before: Naw, he didn't. There's no such a thing as you "straighten" bent pushrods. When they're bent, they're dead. Permanently. They cannot successfully be straightened, just bent differently. Early production 1960 Slant-6s had a tendency to bend the pushrods for the #6 (rearmost) and, in extreme cases, the #5 pushrods, due to insufficient oiling at that location. There's a TSB on the subject, which IIRC calls for pulling the camshaft and checking for proper drilling. This engine feeds oil to the pushrods via a drilled passage in the rearmost camshaft journal, and some of the early-production cams were improperly drilled. (This problem has resurfaced more recently, as Comp Cams improperly drills some of their new ones!). If/when you disassemble the engine, it'll be an ideal time to swap in a better camshaft and obviate that potential source of trouble. But all this longwindedness means "Change those bent pushrods 'cause they'll never be right until you do!"

Quote:
OK...I think that's everything. I look forward to everyone's replies.


Keep the faith. It can seem overwhelming at times, but if you stick to it, you will eventually have a reliably-running car.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 10:10 pm 
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SlantSixDan wrote:
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooo! That stuff sometimes seems to "help" worn transmissions in the short term, but it greatly accelerates and worsens seal wear. It softens-up the seals in the transmission, but makes them way too soft and swollen. In that condition, they are rapidly abraded and worn away by the metal parts they're meant to seal. Here again, as with STP, this stuff is not a fix or a cleaner or a "conditioner" -- it is meant to drag a last few hundred miles out of an old junker that is running on borrowed time.


SSD votes "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooo!", and I vote "YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEeeeeeees!"

...as with many things, opinions vary and you'll have to decide what to do. I can tell you that I have had very good luck with TransX in many leaky old transmissions in dozens of cars that I've owned in the last 25 years. I have poured in TransX and driven for tens of thousands of miles with no problems. Yes, the correct fix is replace those seals, but some additives are actually useful for old neglected or worn out cars.

D/W

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 Post subject: 60 slant woes
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 10:58 pm 
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Hang in there, I have not read all of your transcript, but your in good hands. Tthe one thing I might add is do not try to adjust too much at one time.

Trial & error is all part of the experience, if you change too many items at once you won't know which one corrected the problem.

My valiant has been very trouble free for the last 3 + years-- (knock on wood) I drive the vehicle daily & it has been on extended trips more than once

Keep us posted on the progress---- your on the right track.


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