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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:34 pm 
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4 BBL ''Hyper-Pak''
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Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 7:19 pm
Posts: 25
Location: Toronto, Canada
Car Model*: 1966 Clark Cortez
Good news! The Cortez finally started today after a few tweaks - had to reset the dizzy for TDC based on the balancer marking, which quickly revealed why I never stood a chance before. The rotor was at 6 o'clock so clearly needed to be re-aligned. Put in all new plugs gapped to .045 and she fired right up! Of course that's a bit of a lie as I tried a few times before realizing that the dizzy signal hadn't been reconnected ; ) I should have recorded it running as it was sounding pretty good!

I also removed the relay from the HEI circuit to rule that out as a possible source of my "no kill" situation, but that doesn't seem to be the issue. The only way I could stop the engine is by pulling the ignition power to the relay. I've taken a photo of the starter wiring to see if anyone can see where I'm going wrong - please let me know if you have any suggestions.

Click her for image or Image

I've ordered a basic timing gun to get that all set and will mess around with the carb as it was clearly running very rich before. Anyone know how to set up a Carter YH single barrel? I'll also need to sort out the heating signal as either the unit is dead or my dial is dead - will need to test and see. Getting closer every day thanks to this forum!

_________________
1966 Clark Cortez Motorhome w/
Industrial Slant 6 looking for adventure!


Last edited by east3rd on Thu Jun 07, 2018 6:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:26 am 
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EFI Slant 6
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Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2006 4:09 am
Posts: 384
Location: Tolland, Ct. 06084
Car Model*: 65 Dart, 225, 4 spd od, hyd clutch, BBD, 2 1/4 exh
Image shows source of power for HEI module at the solenoid (as you pointed out).

It does not show a fuse at that location so it's hopeful the fuse is slightly out of sight.

More importantly however is where that line s connected to the HEI relay.

If you refer to the Annotated wiring diagram in the "HEI Electronic Ignition Retrofit How-To" note that AR294 Relay has several terminals (30, 85, 86, and 87).

Terminal 30 (the red colored line) is the one that must receive fused power from the battery (or starter relay in your case)

If power came to terminal 86 (the green colored line) all the time (it was not switched) then the relay would power up the HEI constantly.

So your experiment might have been to disconnect the green colored line and see if the HEI shut down. If so then you would suspect the ignition switch is not properly turning the relay on and off properly.

If the fused power line was hooked to the yellow line or terminal 87 somehow then the HEI would be powered all the time and essentially your vehicle would just continue to run.

So your mission would be to follow those lines and determine power at the connections if you wanted the protection that the relay circuit would offer in your vehicle as well as improved voltage to the coil.

Glad you were able to verify and adjust the distributor rotor position to match the needs of your slants crank/piston/valve positions. Your efforts paid off. If your are looking into a timing light consider an inductance unit that does not require you to disconnect number one plug wire to operate.....fooling with wires can introduce problems and you can do without making them yourself .....let the engine introduce it's own problems!!!!

_________________
1965 Dart 110k, 225, Carter BBD Super Six, 2 1/4 single exh., sbp manual scarebird front disc, 7 1/4 rear 2.94 sure grip, 14 x 4.5 OEM wheels, 833 OD with hyd. throwout bearing, HEI, electric fan, ram air/heated air, Accusump. http://plymouthcarclub.com/


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 6:49 am 
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4 BBL ''Hyper-Pak''
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Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 7:19 pm
Posts: 25
Location: Toronto, Canada
Car Model*: 1966 Clark Cortez
DonPal wrote:
Terminal 30 (the red colored line) is the one that must receive fused power from the battery (or starter relay in your case)

If power came to terminal 86 (the green colored line) all the time (it was not switched) then the relay would power up the HEI constantly.


DonPal - I think you nailed down exactly what my problem is. That green line from the solenoid was assumed to be my ignition power and not my constant. My relay's #30 is actually connected to the battery (with fuse), so lit looks like I have two sources of constant 12V connected at the same time. I guess I assumed the green line was 'ignition switch only' power based on the old wiring, but I'll have to take another look. I may send another photo of the wiring where the HEI lives (passenger footwell) to get your input.

PS - Inductive gun is ordered and on the way!

_________________
1966 Clark Cortez Motorhome w/
Industrial Slant 6 looking for adventure!


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:18 pm 
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4 BBL ''Hyper-Pak''
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Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 7:19 pm
Posts: 25
Location: Toronto, Canada
Car Model*: 1966 Clark Cortez
Success! Car starts, runs, and best of all stops! Best of all? So that gets the wiring sorted out. Set timing to 6 degrees advance but still need to check total advance and adjust the carb. Found cylinders 2 & 6 not firing well by using the timing gun trick - could hear it as well but the gun confirmed which cylinders were off. Ordered new wires and will replace tomorrow. Also installed the electric choke unit but need to run power to it etc.

My issue now is the ignition coil - it doesn't seem to always generate a spark as the engine turns over. When I first fired it up it took several revolutions before it started, and even then I'm pretty sure it was because releasing the key discharged the coil. On every start up after that (about 5-6), it seemed that releasing the key was what initiated the spark. But if the car runs after the fact, it must be generating a consistent spark, no? Then why not on startup?

The only other items I can think of are either the ignition switch or the distributor module/hall sensor - any thoughts on which to tackle first and how?

FYI - I don't think the bad cylinders and the inconsistent spark are related as cylinders 2 & 6 were consistently off. If the coil was not firing consistently, I would expect random cylinders to misfire which was not the case.

_________________
1966 Clark Cortez Motorhome w/
Industrial Slant 6 looking for adventure!


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:23 pm 
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EFI Slant 6
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Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2006 4:09 am
Posts: 384
Location: Tolland, Ct. 06084
Car Model*: 65 Dart, 225, 4 spd od, hyd clutch, BBD, 2 1/4 exh
If it's hard to get it fired when key is in the "start" position (ie turning starter) but seems to catch when in the key is in the "run" position then checking out the voltage available to the coil during the start position is a first step. If you determine the voltage is low possibly caused by a high resistance in that circuit try isolating the ignition switch and see if the resistance is high there. Bad contacts in the ignition key sometimes surface. HEI circuits should have no ballast resistor in the circuit so a full 12 volts or more in both the start and run position should be the measurement you want to see.

_________________
1965 Dart 110k, 225, Carter BBD Super Six, 2 1/4 single exh., sbp manual scarebird front disc, 7 1/4 rear 2.94 sure grip, 14 x 4.5 OEM wheels, 833 OD with hyd. throwout bearing, HEI, electric fan, ram air/heated air, Accusump. http://plymouthcarclub.com/


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:04 pm 
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4 BBL ''Hyper-Pak''
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Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 7:19 pm
Posts: 25
Location: Toronto, Canada
Car Model*: 1966 Clark Cortez
DonPal - I managed to get the truck running again today but only after a lot of effort. Here are my findings:

No spark at coil, but the coil's resistance in both primary and secondary seem spot on. As mentioned earlier, coil only sparks on the release of the key from ignition to run position. Checked the voltage on 2 different circuits that I could use for ignition - one from the starter solenoid (as the original wiring diagram outlines), and one from the ignition switch circuit (a bit of a mystery as the wiring diagram I have doesn't show this wire connecting to anything, but it does have 12v in the run position only so is a viable source). However, both sources drop way off when trying to start so this could point to another problem.

I then checked the ignition switch and all circuits have very low resistance and continuity as expected. But testing the starter solenoid I found about 16 ohms resistance on the S terminal. I also found the voltage on the S terminal was .5v lower than the battery voltage, and lower still on the output terminal. Time to replace?

Despite all this, I checked the coil again for spark and still only got spark on the release of the key.

Once again I was able to get the engine running by spraying starter fluid into the intake while cranking the ignition, which of course only actually started once I released the key. From then on the engine ran fine - after 10 minutes I killed it and after adjusting a few things was able to fire it up again without the need for any starter fluid. To my novice brain this seems like a cold start problem that points to the carb, but I could be way off. Also, is it possible that the velocity of the starter/battery is too low to trigger the dizzy hall sensor? Afterall, once I get the engine running it runs fine, meaning continual spark is present. Or could this be a hall sensor gap issue?

So it looks like I have 3 possible problems to solve! #1 - no spark at the coil, and #2 - a fuel problem with the carb. #3 - a bad starter solenoid. Thoughts?

_________________
1966 Clark Cortez Motorhome w/
Industrial Slant 6 looking for adventure!


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:03 am 
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EFI Slant 6
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Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2006 4:09 am
Posts: 384
Location: Tolland, Ct. 06084
Car Model*: 65 Dart, 225, 4 spd od, hyd clutch, BBD, 2 1/4 exh
Quote:
both sources drop way off when trying to start

Suggest you try a jumper from battery to primary coil for the start and see if it starts promptly

_________________
1965 Dart 110k, 225, Carter BBD Super Six, 2 1/4 single exh., sbp manual scarebird front disc, 7 1/4 rear 2.94 sure grip, 14 x 4.5 OEM wheels, 833 OD with hyd. throwout bearing, HEI, electric fan, ram air/heated air, Accusump. http://plymouthcarclub.com/


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:41 pm 
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4 BBL ''Hyper-Pak''
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Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 7:19 pm
Posts: 25
Location: Toronto, Canada
Car Model*: 1966 Clark Cortez
DonPal wrote:
Suggest you try a jumper from battery to primary coil for the start and see if it starts promptly


Here is a photo of my coil and module - when you say jump from the battery to the primary, are you saying power the "B" from the battery? If so, this is what I tried tonight but with no success. I connected the line "to ignition power" directly to my battery and gave it a crank. Just turned over and over without catching a spark.

Image or click here

_________________
1966 Clark Cortez Motorhome w/
Industrial Slant 6 looking for adventure!


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:30 am 
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EFI Slant 6
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Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2006 4:09 am
Posts: 384
Location: Tolland, Ct. 06084
Car Model*: 65 Dart, 225, 4 spd od, hyd clutch, BBD, 2 1/4 exh
Quote:
Here is a photo of my coil and module - when you say jump from the battery to the primary, are you saying power the "B" from the battery?


For HEI relay setup terminal 87 supplies power to the pink line of the Coil connector.

Since your mission is to decide whether your ignition circuit is causing the problem...... bypass it entirely by bringing power from the battery to the pink line of the coil connector. If the car starts promptly when battery to pink is connected then your off to tracking down an ignition circuit issue. If it doesn't then anything is possible.

The thing is your ignition circuit or HEI relay are being bypassed so they cannot be hooked up to that pink coil wire (in case of a short in the ignition circuit) while the battery direct to coil jumper is used.

Image has coil wire blocking view of the 4 wire plug into the coil so you need to compare your coil wire hookup to the wiring diagram. At the very least the loose/open tach wire connection should be capped.

Note that when you did get it started you noted #6 and #2 had a weak to no spark at the plug. Your firing order is 1,5,3,6,2,4 so it's adjacent plugs in the firing order which if not firing will cause it harder to get started. Pull the distributor cap and look for evidence of severe arcing between the rotor tip and those Cap terminals.

_________________
1965 Dart 110k, 225, Carter BBD Super Six, 2 1/4 single exh., sbp manual scarebird front disc, 7 1/4 rear 2.94 sure grip, 14 x 4.5 OEM wheels, 833 OD with hyd. throwout bearing, HEI, electric fan, ram air/heated air, Accusump. http://plymouthcarclub.com/


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:34 am 
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4 BBL ''Hyper-Pak''
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Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 7:19 pm
Posts: 25
Location: Toronto, Canada
Car Model*: 1966 Clark Cortez
DonPal wrote:
For HEI relay setup terminal 87 supplies power to the pink line of the Coil connector.

I thought 87 supplied power to the pink line as well as the "B" terminal of the module? This is how I have it wired at the moment.

DonPal wrote:
Since your mission is to decide whether your ignition circuit is causing the problem...... bypass it entirely by bringing power from the battery to the pink line of the coil connector.

Don't I need to run power to the "B" terminal of the module as well? In my test, I disconnected the line running to #87 and connected it directly to the battery. Are you saying to connect the pink line to the battery and ignore the "B" terminal?

DonPal wrote:
Image has coil wire blocking view of the 4 wire plug into the coil so you need to compare your coil wire hookup to the wiring diagram. At the very least the loose/open tach wire connection should be capped.

My setup uses the recommended 2 pin/3 wire connector - pink for power, green for "C" on module and tach (which I'll cap as you suggest). Is this correct?

_________________
1966 Clark Cortez Motorhome w/
Industrial Slant 6 looking for adventure!


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:54 am 
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EFI Slant 6
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Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2006 4:09 am
Posts: 384
Location: Tolland, Ct. 06084
Car Model*: 65 Dart, 225, 4 spd od, hyd clutch, BBD, 2 1/4 exh
Quote:
My setup uses the recommended 2 pin/3 wire connector


Not familiar with 3 wire coil connector arrangement so someone with a working system using 3 wire connector needs to jump in.

_________________
1965 Dart 110k, 225, Carter BBD Super Six, 2 1/4 single exh., sbp manual scarebird front disc, 7 1/4 rear 2.94 sure grip, 14 x 4.5 OEM wheels, 833 OD with hyd. throwout bearing, HEI, electric fan, ram air/heated air, Accusump. http://plymouthcarclub.com/


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:53 pm 
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4 BBL ''Hyper-Pak''
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Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 7:19 pm
Posts: 25
Location: Toronto, Canada
Car Model*: 1966 Clark Cortez
Think I got it sorted! Appears to have been the starter solenoid all along - got the plugs back in and the valve cover back on and tried to start it. Turned over and sputtered (which is always promising) but would never catch. In checking for spark I was jumping the solenoid terminals since I was working solo and was the only way I could turn the engine over by myself. What do you know! The thing almost started!!! Put the coil lead back together and sat down in the driver's seat. Grabbed my screwdriver, jumped the solenoid and voila! I'll be ordering the part tomorrow and installing this weekend - just when you want to put your rust bucket on Craigslist, the magic happens ; )

_________________
1966 Clark Cortez Motorhome w/
Industrial Slant 6 looking for adventure!


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:36 am 
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EFI Slant 6
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Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2006 4:09 am
Posts: 384
Location: Tolland, Ct. 06084
Car Model*: 65 Dart, 225, 4 spd od, hyd clutch, BBD, 2 1/4 exh
So the Summary is???:
1) Relay ignition activation circuit needed to be rewired
2) Solenoid defective

Two electrical problems at once can be challenging.

This last jumping bit is because the ignition switch key arrangement isn't working also?

_________________
1965 Dart 110k, 225, Carter BBD Super Six, 2 1/4 single exh., sbp manual scarebird front disc, 7 1/4 rear 2.94 sure grip, 14 x 4.5 OEM wheels, 833 OD with hyd. throwout bearing, HEI, electric fan, ram air/heated air, Accusump. http://plymouthcarclub.com/


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:42 am 
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4 BBL ''Hyper-Pak''
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Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 7:19 pm
Posts: 25
Location: Toronto, Canada
Car Model*: 1966 Clark Cortez
@DonPal - to be honest I feel like I've lost track of everything I've done! Could be a happy accident or a lucky Fonzie move ; )
Regardless, here are all of the things I did to get me to where I am today - my advice to anyone with an ignition problem is to ensure all of these are covered before buying/replacing parts. If I had to do this again, here is what I would do - this wasn't necessarily the order I actually did things this time around, so hindsight is 20/20.

  1. Check all ignition wiring visually and with a circuit tester for continuity. This should include testing the ignition switch in all positions (for continuity), checking any resistor ballasts (if used), all solenoids and of course the battery. For the battery, you should check for good charge as well as solid connections (a zero reading on your voltmeter between the battery stud and the wire connector). Also check your ignition coil's primary and secondary windings for correct values. Any solenoids will have to be tested in multiple positions - key off, key on and key in ignition position.
  2. Find true TDC! This may seem obvious but by ensuring you truly are at TDC on cylinder #1 will remove timing as an issue. Don't trust any existing marks - find TDC and re-mark as required. I used a compression gauge with the Schrader valve removed in order to find the crossover point between compression and vacuum
  3. This is also a good time to check overall compression in each cylinder (assuming you can crank the engine over) - if there are any issues here then these other steps are mute until they get addressed. Check spark plugs and replace if need be. Since I upgraded the HEI to a new coil I changed to the longer plugs and re-gapped to 0.045 based on the HEI upgrade thread recommendation
  4. With cylinder #1 at TDC check the distributor rotor is located correctly and pointing to the #1 cylinder position. This is a good time to inspect the cap for arching/corrosion, check the rotor's tip for the same, and inspect the wiring on the internal module. Also a good time to ensure the sensor is gapped correctly. Inspect springs and weights to make sure there is nothing loose or binding etc. and check for play in the shaft itself. I would also remove the distributor altogether and do a general inspection of the bottom gear for missing teeth, as well as test the vacuum advance (just suck on the valve to see if you can create a good vacuum). While you have it out you might as well do a quick test for spark - with the cap removed, spin the rotor from the bottom of the shaft (at the gear) and check your coil for spark by grounding it out (I use a 12v tester). You can take this even further by running the coil wire to the cap and ensuring you get spark at the cap, and further still be plugging the spark plug wires to the cap and seeing if each of these gets a spark. If all seems good, replace the distributor ensuring you are in the #1 position.
  5. Check all spark plug wires for good connections both at the cap and the plugs. You may also want to test the individual spark plug wires to ensure continuity if you didn't do the additional spark test above - be sure to wiggle them as you test to see if there are any breaks in continuity during your test. If you have new wires you may want to skip this test, but it's also a good way to rule out bad wires even in new sets.
  6. Check your carburetor! Make sure everything works as expected - throttle plate moves freely, choke plate moves freely, choke thermostat is not broken, idle screw(s) are set correctly (or at least in a correct starting position, to be adjusted later), fuel flows when the accelerator is depressed etc.
  7. Check fuel filters & lines - Do a visual inspection for cracked lines, leaks etc. If you've just rebuilt your carb then there's no harm in replacing fuel filters
  8. Check Vacuum Line - Do a preliminary inspection for obvious cracks as you won't know if there are any real leaks until everything is up and running
  9. Start it up! - Assuming everything checks out, you might as well start things up. If you've replaced any fuel lines, filters or the carb, it may take some time to get fuel to the bowl so be patient. If you have an electric fuel pump then you can prime the system by shorting the pump in order to get it running without having to turn the engine over
  10. If all goes well it should fire up and you can start worrying about setting your timing etc. If not, then work backwards and hit the obvious things first. Are you getting fuel to the carb, are you getting spark to the plugs. You should also consider removing items from the equation where possible in order to hone in on the issue - for example, if you've done the HEI upgrade and added the relay, try bypassing it to see if its a possible cause.

I hope this info helps others - it may seem like a lot to check but in reality probably only takes an hour or 2 to run through. If I had gone through this list systematically I probably would have saved myself several evenings of frustration!

_________________
1966 Clark Cortez Motorhome w/
Industrial Slant 6 looking for adventure!


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