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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 3:24 pm 
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I noted the unlimited class was somewhat limited in the records form now.

With the various fuel restrictions, perhaps we need a few more classes.

Blown Alcohol needs to be added. My new car won't qualify for records.

E-85 needs to be added. E-85 adder classes too. It's a different animal, and shouldn't be treated as "Gasoline." If we want to include it in the Gasoline class, then document it. We have a lot of racers running it now.

Unlimited needs to mean unlimited. Just uncork it. Somebody wants to go Top Fuel Slant Six, let 'em! :D

Sure, require other classes run "Gasoline" or "Alcohol." Don't put a cap on unlimited though. Keep it open for the crazies to play with.

CJ

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 4:58 pm 
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I understood that Unlimited includes ALL of the things you are talking about, CJ. I thought that is what we discussed (and voted on, in the East) last year. Not sure how that could have changed.

I don't really think we want to add more classes now, although we could discuss it.

According to the form you posted, there are no restrictions at all in the Unlimited class. We had a discussion here about nitro only, but anything else goes. Personally, I don't even see a reason to limit nitro except that many tracks prohibit it and that might restrict who can run that.

Confused in VA...

Lou

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:48 pm 
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The language of the rule can be difficult to follow.

Unlimited allows Gasoline or Alcohol, with some form of forced induction, also allowing the use of Nitrous in conjunction with the forced induction.

That's what I read. It's a bit confusing the way it is worded. Fuel type is not identified.

I still don't agree with a moratorium on Nitro. For consideration in future rules changes, I'd like to see it come up. I don't expect it to come to a vote right away. Put it on the back burner, and think about the reasons it isn't allowed so we can have an open dialog about it. Most of the "Rules" and "Prohibitions" I hear about are not factual. No special insurance, no Minimum ET. Nitro is allowed or not by the class rules. There are a limited number of NHRA classes that allow it. Most of the Nostalgia events are awash in the stuff. As long as the Tech details are met, the track is happy to have fast cars for spectators to watch. Neither here nor there. Sounds like some folks don't want to have the converstation.

The issue that should be addressed is the use of E-85, and how it might impact someone applying for a record. Does it qualify as Gasoline or Alcohol? It might be a good idea to come to a determination so we don't have an issue down the track sometime. If this issue could be resolved, even by a consensus taking of current racers, that would ease my mind.

My recommendation would be to identify Gasoline as including pump E-85 at all normally available blends, not to exceed 85% Ethanol.

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CJ

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:27 am 
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I don't see what there is to read. Anything that is not in the other classes is Ulimited. That was the intention of that class. The things you mention are simply examples, and are not lmiting. We can discuss the nitro issue as we go forward.

I don't see how E85 classifies in any way as gasoline. It is ethanol with a little gas in it. We could discuss having that fall into the alcohol (methanol) class, maybe?

Lou

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:23 am 
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And now you see why I have a concern about E-85.

Glad you have it figured out. Now lets write it down, or create a new classification so there is no question where it falls.


CJ

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:03 am 
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E85 is alcohol and can be used in any class that allows alcohol. A better question is how much ethanol can be in regualr gas before you call it something other than gasoline.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:11 am 
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Note that "alcohol" to drag racers means methanol (wood alcohol), which is different than "alcohol" to heavy drinkers, which means ethanol (corn or sugar-derived alcohol). As a chemist, I would say they are both types of alcohol, but with different chemical and phsyical properties.

I have no problem putting E85 in with the alcohol class, but some folks might. I'm glad we are discussing all of these issues...

As far as mixtures that are closer to 50/50, that's another can of worms to define, as Seymour says.

E10 (or now sometimes E15?) is common as pump gas, where E10 is gasoline with 10% ethanol. So, I would clearly classify E10 and E15 as gasoline.

We could say gasoline with more than 20% alcohol, OR anything that is alcohol with more than 20% gasoline needs to go to the Unlimited class? I don't know of anyone doing this, so this might be solving (anticipating) a future confusion/problem.

Lou

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:37 am 
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Most of the tracks I've been to consider E-85 as alcohol. (Most of the racers who use it do to)

As far as "gas", pump gas is supposedly no more than 15% ethanol, I'd say nothing more than that. :shock:

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:58 am 
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I think alcohol is alcohol no matter how much or how little is added and will always be seen as an unfair advantage. If someone is beaten in competition by someone using it, I see a potential for protests and hard feelings either at the system for allowing it or elsewhere. So I would avoid that before it happens and classify it along with the alcohol class. Also like Slantzilla says, most if not all tracks consider any alcohol content in the gas to be considered alcohol and not gas, your rules have to stay consistent as well, and the race tracks rules will always override and supercede any rules you might impose on these classes. Just like a racetrack that is claiming to run under NHRA guidelines cannot enforce or impose rules that contradict those NHRA guidelines.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:02 am 
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When the FEDS require it to be in gas, then all of us will be in alcohol class!!

Richard

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 Post subject: Lol....
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:25 pm 
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Not to add fuel to the fire... :shock:

Maybe we should break gasoline into two classes:
Pump gas: Straight regular/plus/super, and including E10/E15 depending on the area. All unleaded.
Race gas: over 96 octane RON+MON/2 method, or any grade utilizing TEL...

If you really want to get specific, US regulations require that fuel ethanol be denatured to keep people from pumping a gallon and making jungle juice, so even fuel alcohol has a splash of gasoline in it to make sure it's not 100% neat and drinkable... (E99.995)

-D.Idiot


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:36 am 
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Why split gas into two classes? We have a lot of classes already.

Lou

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:05 am 
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My thoughts exactly Lou. Until you get into the bigger percentages of alky, the pump gasses are a hinderence, not a help.

Run what ya brung, and hope you brung enough. :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:22 am 
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I think the majority of us go racing to win rounds. In bracket racing it don't matter so much what kind of fuel or horsepower adders we have, what matters is trying to run the the number on the windshield. Of coarse if you are trying to set records it may be a different matter.

Ron H.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:58 am 
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Before you know it we will have a seperate class for each and every racer's car so they can have a "record". :wink:

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