Slant Six Forum,  Forum Index
Slant Six Forum,  Forum Index
Slant Six Forum,  Forum Index
Home Slant Six Forum,  Forum Index Log in Register FAQ Memberlist Search

Please consider a donation to Claude's Valiant Effort.

Timing Marks on Lorrie Van Haul's 225 Slant Six
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Slant Six Forum, Forum Index -> Engine
Select message display options:             View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
JCAllison
Turbo Slant 6


Joined: 13 Jun 2008
Posts: 829
Location: Onalaska, Texas

Post subject: Timing Marks on Lorrie Van Haul's 225 Slant Six (Mon May 21, 2012 9:53 am) Reply with quote

Hey All,
Got under the front of Lorrie's mighty 225 Slant Six this morning to look on the Damper for the Timing Mark. Turned the Engine till the Mark was found.

Sanded the areas on either side of the Mark, and put White Paint on both sides of it making it plainly visible.

Then proceeded to find the Timing Tab on the Timing Chain Cover. Looking at the Engine from the front, it is located just above the perimeter of the Damper at approximately 1:00 O'Clock.

Cleaned it off with an old sweat sock soaked in Lacquer Thinner.

The PROBLEM is: There is ABSOLUTELY no way to see the Timing Tab AND the Mark on the Damper at the same time due to Body Panels and Engine Parts being in the way.

Lorrie has a hinged Hood Hatch that permits access to the Radiator Cap and does permit access to the Alternator, making it possible to, with some amount of difficulty, adjust the Fan Belt tension. But it doesn't allow a Timing Light to illuminate both the Timing Tab on the Timing Chain Cover AND the Timing Mark on the Damper.

A Timing Light MAY be able to illuminate the Timing Tab, but the Fan Pulley, and Fan Belt preclude being able to see the Mark on the Damper.

The thought occurs to me that it might be possible to set up ANOTHER Timing Tab at another location by attaching it somewhere more accessible, like maybe attaching it to one of Bolts on the front of the Oil Pan near the bottom of the Damper.

Then it would be a matter of setting the existing Timing Mark on the Damper to the "0" on the existing Timing Tab on the Timing Chain Cover, and then making a NEW Timing Mark on the Damper to coincide with the "0" on the NEW Timing Tab conneted to the Oil Pan.

That would make it possible to get under the front of the Engine with the Timing Light and be able to easily see the Timing Marks which isn't presently possible.

Doing this would entail once again removing the Radiator to be able to see the Timing Tab on the Timing Chain Cover, and the Timing Mark on the Damper. They could then be aligned precisely.

Then a NEW Timing Mark could be "cut" into the Damper aligned with the 0" on the NEW Timing Tab attached to the Oil Pan.

Or MAYBE there is a better solution to this problem.

Any responses would be GREATLY appreciated.

JC



_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Mail Van - 225 Slant Six - Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Reed
Supercharged


Joined: 03 Nov 2002
Posts: 10397
Location: Fircrest, WA

Post subject: (Mon May 21, 2012 10:45 am) Reply with quote

That looks like a fun project. I think you have a good idea about making a second timing tab and a new timing mark on the damper. Chrysler actually did make a second timing tab on V-8 motors on vans in the 80s that was visible from below the van in the front.

You may want to switch to a later vibration dampener that has the three timing mark grooves cut in it. This would give you several other options of where to put the mark instead of having to cut into your original damper. Whatever you do, just be absolutely positive that you are marking true TDC accurately. I would recommend pulling the head to set true TDC when you make the new timing tab. I also recommend making sure the outer ring on your original damper hasn't slipped.



_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sandy in BC
Board Sponsor & SL6 Racer


Joined: 08 Nov 2002
Posts: 4988
Location: Burton BC canada

Post subject: (Mon May 21, 2012 11:07 am) Reply with quote

Dont pull the head just yet......

Your idea is a good one.

1> Line up the damper and timing tab zero mark. with the engine stationary.

2>In a conveniant location bolt a piece of rebar wire under a bolt.....any easy bolt.

3> Bend the wire till it crosses the damper in an easy to see location. Mark the damper.


If you have a dial back light : adjust the timing mark on the damper to the desired advance setting on the original tab.....say 8 BTC.

go to steps 2 and 3 and set your dial back light accordingly.


I use the same wire idea degreeing cams.



_________________
Yeah....Im the one who destroyed this rare, vintage automobile.....


http://www.arrowtipi.com/My%20Webs/index%20Valiant.htm
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Reed
Supercharged


Joined: 03 Nov 2002
Posts: 10397
Location: Fircrest, WA

Post subject: (Mon May 21, 2012 11:47 am) Reply with quote

I am overly paranoid, and I would want the new TDC mark to be as accurate as possible. The best way to do that would be to pull the head. However, if you don't pull the head, you should at least get a piston stop tool and verify TDC that way.

I would recommend something a little sturdier than rebar wire since the new timing tab will be subject to vibration and the occasional impact from road debris.



_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sandy in BC
Board Sponsor & SL6 Racer


Joined: 08 Nov 2002
Posts: 4988
Location: Burton BC canada

Post subject: (Mon May 21, 2012 11:50 am) Reply with quote

You only use the wire to time it the once......



_________________
Yeah....Im the one who destroyed this rare, vintage automobile.....


http://www.arrowtipi.com/My%20Webs/index%20Valiant.htm
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Reed
Supercharged


Joined: 03 Nov 2002
Posts: 10397
Location: Fircrest, WA

Post subject: (Mon May 21, 2012 12:08 pm) Reply with quote

Sure, but if I was going to go through the effort to make a new timing tab and make sure it as in the right place, I would want it to be fairly permanent to avoid having to go through the whole process every time I needed to set or adjust the timing on the motor.

Do it once, do it right, and never do it again.



_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SlantSixDan
Board Sponsor & Contributor


Joined: 31 Oct 2002
Posts: 22051
Location: North America

Post subject: (Mon May 21, 2012 12:20 pm) Reply with quote

How is the line of sight to the other side of the crank pulley? If the timing mark and indicator were at about 10:00 rather than 1:00, below where the lower radiator hose connects to the water pump, could you see them clearly? Because if so, a '67-up timing cover and vibration damper (or a '67-up timing cover and a new mark on your present damper) would solve the problem.



_________________
一期一会

By birth & parentage: US citizen, 2nd class
By choice: Canadian citizen, 1st class

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
Doc
Guru


Joined: 14 Oct 2002
Posts: 5195
Location: Working in Silicon Valley, USA

Post subject: (Mon May 21, 2012 12:23 pm) Reply with quote

The later timing mark looks like this:
DD



Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Reed
Supercharged


Joined: 03 Nov 2002
Posts: 10397
Location: Fircrest, WA

Post subject: Re: Timing Marks on Lorrie Van Haul's 225 Slant Six (Mon May 21, 2012 1:05 pm) Reply with quote

JCAllison wrote:
The PROBLEM is: There is ABSOLUTELY no way to see the Timing Tab AND the Mark on the Damper at the same time due to Body Panels and Engine Parts being in the way.

Lorrie has a hinged Hood Hatch that permits access to the Radiator Cap and does permit access to the Alternator, making it possible to, with some amount of difficulty, adjust the Fan Belt tension. But it doesn't allow a Timing Light to illuminate both the Timing Tab on the Timing Chain Cover AND the Timing Mark on the Damper.

A Timing Light MAY be able to illuminate the Timing Tab, but the Fan Pulley, and Fan Belt preclude being able to see the Mark on the Damper.






Looking at the view of the front of his motor and considering that the motor is in a snub-nosed mail van, I seriously doubt there will be any stock timing mark setup that will be easily useable on this van once the radiator is in place. I think the easiest way to go would be to fabricate a timing tab and pointer that mounted on the bottom of the motor. Something that bolted to the oil pan bolts or something.



_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sandy in BC
Board Sponsor & SL6 Racer


Joined: 08 Nov 2002
Posts: 4988
Location: Burton BC canada

Post subject: (Mon May 21, 2012 1:43 pm) Reply with quote

mebbe a piece of wire........and a soapstone.



_________________
Yeah....Im the one who destroyed this rare, vintage automobile.....


http://www.arrowtipi.com/My%20Webs/index%20Valiant.htm
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
JCAllison
Turbo Slant 6


Joined: 13 Jun 2008
Posts: 829
Location: Onalaska, Texas

Post subject: (Mon May 21, 2012 1:59 pm) Reply with quote

Reed wrote:
That looks like a fun project.


Hey Reed,
Have been giving this a good amount of thought.

Quote:
I think you have a good idea about making a second timing tab and a new timing mark on the damper.


The netizens here with Slant Sixes in a Car have the Timing Marks in the MOST CONVENIENT place. It's right there in the front, on top, readily visible, simple to hit with a Timing Light. It isn't even given a second thought.

Lorrie, on the other hand, is NOT your usual commercial vehicle. And access to the Timing Tab and Damper Mark is but another of a long list of what to me, seem to be factors caused by lack of thought by the designers, if in fact, the P200 Postal Van was given any aforethough by a designer.

And so few instances of this particular problem ever get questioned, that no thoght as to how to remedy the difficulty is ever given very much consideration.

Quote:
Chrysler actually did make a second timing tab on V-8 motors on vans in the 80s that was visible from below the van in the front.


Well, you see? There you go!

How many of those 1980 V8 Vans were made? Compare that with how many 1967 P200 Postal Vans were made, and you can see that when something produces a solvable problems in substantial numbers, that a solution is integrated into the system that solves the problem.

You know Reed, I don't even remember HOW Lorrie's Timing was set when I rebuilt the Engine in 1985. That part of the process is a blank.

Quote:
You may want to switch to a later vibration dampener that has the three timing mark grooves cut in it. This would give you several other options of where to put the mark instead of having to cut into your original damper.


Am not worried about putting another mark on Lorrie's present Damper. It would be done with the Craftsman RotoTool and a Cut-Off Disk. It would be less than 1/32" deep, so we're not talking about anything that is going to affect strength or balance.

Quote:
Whatever you do, just be absolutely positive that you are marking true TDC accurately. I would recommend pulling the head to set true TDC when you make the new timing tab.


I've sat here and read this last paragraph a half dozen times, and need to ask a question:

Would it matter if the Engine's Number One Cylinder is at TDC in order to get the NEW Timing Mark on the Damper in the right place?

I mean, When the ORIGINAL OLD Timing Mark on the Damper is perfectly aligned with the Center Line on the ORIGINAL OLD Timing Tab's Center Line, would it matter to the NEW Mark on Damper whether or not it was turned either another 360 degrees before getting made? I mean, the Timing Mark would be at the same place whether the Piston was at TDC at the end of the Compression Stroke or TDC at the end of the Exhaust Stroke, wouldn't it?

Quote:
I also recommend making sure the outer ring on your original damper hasn't slipped.


Good point!

Had the Outer Ring on the Damper on Ms. American come loose from the Elastic Band between it and the Inner Ring/hub. It got treated with Cyanoacrylate, and a bit of ZipKicker and it wouldn't slip foa a couple of weeks. Finally ended up getting another Damper from the Damper Doctor and am all set to send the OLD ORIGINAL Damper to him to be rebuilt.

Anyway, have been contemplating HOW to make the Timing Tab, and how to actually attach it to the Engine.

Have been contemplating how to make the Marks on the Timing Tab.

Have thought that a nice indication of "degrees" could be produced by measuring the diameter of the Damper, calculating the length of the circumference of the Damper, dividing that number by 360 and that would give the distance between each degree starting from the Center Line and going both directions.

The question of how many lines would need be made depends on how much advancement or retardation one needs. The manual says that the Timing should be., for both Automatic and Manual Transmissions, at TDC.

Anyway, have the materials here to do this. This is going to get put into the agenda as something to do between NOW and the time that the Ignition System get converted to Pertronix with the complimentary Ignition Coil and Spark Plug Leads.

Anyway, thanks for the response.

JC



_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Mail Van - 225 Slant Six - Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sandy in BC
Board Sponsor & SL6 Racer


Joined: 08 Nov 2002
Posts: 4988
Location: Burton BC canada

Post subject: (Mon May 21, 2012 2:14 pm) Reply with quote

<yikes!>



_________________
Yeah....Im the one who destroyed this rare, vintage automobile.....


http://www.arrowtipi.com/My%20Webs/index%20Valiant.htm
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Reed
Supercharged


Joined: 03 Nov 2002
Posts: 10397
Location: Fircrest, WA

Post subject: (Mon May 21, 2012 2:15 pm) Reply with quote

JC- I am a long time van fan, and I can appreciate the difficulty you have in aiming a timing gun at the timing marks on your slant in a van. I have dealt with similar issues on Dodge vans for years.

If you are confident that the original timing mark is in the correct place and accurately indicates the #1 cylinder is at TDC on the compression stroke, then you can make a new timing mark by doing the following:

(1) align the original timing mark at TDC on the original timing tab.
(2) choose a spot on the dampener that is easily visible and is close to some structure on the motor which will support a new timing tab
(3) affix the new timing tab however you think is best, making sure it comes close to the dampener.
(4) scribe, grind, or paint a mark on the dampener to align with the TDC mark on the new timing tab. This new mark will become your new timing mark

Sounds easy to describe, but the devil is in doing this process to ensure the greatest accuracy possible.

Whatever you end up doing, I am very interested in the results and seeing your solution!



_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JCAllison
Turbo Slant 6


Joined: 13 Jun 2008
Posts: 829
Location: Onalaska, Texas

Post subject: (Mon May 21, 2012 2:25 pm) Reply with quote

sandy in BC wrote:
Dont pull the head just yet...... Your idea is a good one.


Hey Sandy,
It seems to be a logical thing to do.

Quote:
1> Line up the damper and timing tab zero mark. with the engine stationary.


Yes. Would have to remove the Radiator to do this.

Quote:
2>In a conveniant location bolt a piece of rebar wire under a bolt.....any easy bolt.


Was looking to have something MORE than just a Pointer indicating where the TDC Timing Mark on the Damper should be. Was thinking more along the lines of a GLORIFIED version of the present Timing Tab.

Quote:
3> Bend the wire till it crosses the damper in an easy to see location. Mark the damper.


This would become: Locater the Timing Tab till it is in an easy to see location and mark the Damper.

Quote:
If you have a dial back light: adjust the timing mark on the damper to the desired advance setting on the original tab.....say 8 BTC.


"Dial back light"? Is this a Timing Light? If it is, this step wouldn't be possible since the Radiator has to be out to permit viewing the Timing Tab and the Timing Mark on the Damper, and the Engine couldn't be run without the Radiator.

Quote:
go to steps 2 and 3 and set your dial back light accordingly.


Again, I'm not sure what a "dial back light" is.

Quote:
I use the same wire idea degreeing cams.


Yes... As a pointer to the Degree Wheel.

In a previous post, mention was made of lack of design has produced a number of problems with Lorrie Van Haul. For instances:

The Gas tank was installed on the Chassis before the Body went on. In order to properly remove the Gas Tank the Body SHOULD be taken off.

Also, the Doors were put in place before the Roof was installed. There is absolutely NO WAY to get the doors out of Lorrie without removing the Roof.

Have run into all sorts of conundrums like these two during this refurbishment.

Am particularly aware of these kinds of problems because back in the '80s, had worked for an Off-Shore Oil Industry, Marine Crane manufacturer, and one of the things that HAD to be taken into consideration was that the Crane was constantly being upgraded to solve problems that arise. AND whenever an upgrade was made, all the other OLD Cranes had to be retrofitted with the NEW upgrade.

That's kind of what this project is like. Am having to design a retrofit to solve the problem of not being able to see the Standard Timing Setup.

Anyway, thanks for understanding what is being attempted here.

Hope YOU are well.

JC



_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Mail Van - 225 Slant Six - Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JCAllison
Turbo Slant 6


Joined: 13 Jun 2008
Posts: 829
Location: Onalaska, Texas

Post subject: (Mon May 21, 2012 2:33 pm) Reply with quote

Reed wrote:
I am overly paranoid, and I would want the new TDC mark to be as accurate as possible. The best way to do that would be to pull the head. However, if you don't pull the head, you should at least get a piston stop tool and verify TDC that way.


Hey Reed,
Am still not sure that it matters whether or not the Number One Piston is at TDC at the end of the Compression Stroke, or at the end of the Exhaust Stroke. They are BOTH at TDC. The Timing Light being connected to the Number One Cylnder's Spark Plug Lead would know the difference either way.

Quote:
I would recommend something a little sturdier than rebar wire since the new timing tab will be subject to vibration and the occasional impact from road debris.


Tend to agree with this. Am thinking along the lines of a piece of 1/16" thick Aluminum mounted on a couple of the Oil Pan Bolts.

In fact, now that you mention "Road Debris" it might be efficacious to make the mounts out of light Angle Iron, and the actual degree tab out of 1/16" thick Aluminum. The Aluminum could be PopRivet-ed to the Angle Iron.

Anyway, good thinking.

JC



_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Mail Van - 225 Slant Six - Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Select message display options:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Slant Six Forum, Forum Index -> Engine All times are GMT - 7 Hours
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next
Page 1 of 8

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
Go To Slant Six Forum Home

Mopar Ring Member Site
Mopar Ring Member Site



Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
Theme created by Vjacheslav Trushkin, modified by Chuck Rivers