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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 6:39 am 
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Turbo Slant 6

Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 12:05 pm
Posts: 871
Location: Onalaska, Texas
Car Model: 1967 Dodge P200 Post Office Vehicle
Reed wrote:
Proper timing will be based on the camshaft used,


Hey Reed,
As far as I know, Lorrie's Camshaft is stock.

Quote:
the emissions package used,


Lorrie doesn't have any emission package. In fact, THAT is why the USPS sold all their vans. The Federal Government mandated that all Federal Vehicles HAD to have full emission controls. So instead of retrofitting emission packages, they just sold the entire fleet and got NEW vans with factory installed emissions controls.

Quote:
and how the distributor is set up.


As far as I know, nothing has been done to Lorrie's Distributor. Once this whole exercise is done, we'll see how it acts.

Quote:
Depending on the year and application, slant sixes had factory timing specs of 16 BTDC to 5 ATDC. The majority of slant sixes had factory specified timing settings in the BTDC range.


The Chilton's Manual says to set the Number One Cylinder's Spark Plug to fire when the Number One's Piston is at TDC. But Daniel says that there is a LOT of info in the Chilton's Manual that is irrelevant, if not downright wrong.

Quote:
Decades of collective experience and experimentation has revealed that the slant six "likes" about 12 degrees initial advance and 32 degrees total advance all in by 3000 RPM.


Well, you see? There you go.

Quote:
How you configure the mechanical and vacuum advance mechanisms in the distributor will determine when and how fast the timing advance comes in.


This will be virgin territory for me. A NEW adventure.

Quote:
Timing specified at TDC suggests that your distributor likely has an aggressive vacuum advance pod that supplies a large amount of advance at low vacuum levels.


Is THAT stock?

Am going to have to do some research and find out how to determine exactly what the case is with Lorrie's Distributor.

Anyway, thanks for the information. This is going to be the beginning of a whole NEW Caper.

JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 6:56 am 
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Turbo Slant 6

Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 12:05 pm
Posts: 871
Location: Onalaska, Texas
Car Model: 1967 Dodge P200 Post Office Vehicle
SlantSixDan wrote:
Set it to 5° before TDC.


Hey Daniel,
Alright.

Quote:
(Is there EVER an occasion that the Spark Plugs would be set to fire AFTER the Pistons PASS TDC?)

No.


Just as I thought. :)

Anyway, am going to finish here, and then go attack the day's procedure.

Drain, disconnect, and remove the Radiator.

Clean and repaint the ORIGINAL Timing Tab.

Clean and repaint the entire edge of the Damper White.

Install the NEW Timing Tab.

Install the Piston Stop Tool in Cylinder Number One.

Turn the Engine till it stops and put a temporary Mark at that position on the Damper at TDC pm the NEW Timing Tab.

Turn the Engine retrograde till it again stops and put another temporary Mark THAT position on the Damper at the TDC on the NEW Timing Tab.

Find the midway point between the two temporary Marks, and that will be TDC in relation to the NEW Timing Tab's TDC Mark.

And if the outer Ring on the Damper has not slipped, then the ORIGINAL Timing Mark on the Damper should be sitting at TDC in relation to the ORIGINAL Timing Tab.

If all is copacetic, then will make a NEW permanent Mark on the Damper to coincide with the TDC Mark on the NEW Timing Tab.

Will then reinstall and hook up the Radiator, and we'll be ready to check the Timing with the Timing Light and the NEW Timing Tab.

That's the plan.

Thanks for the information and confirmation.

JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 10:46 am 
Offline
Turbo Slant 6

Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 12:05 pm
Posts: 871
Location: Onalaska, Texas
Car Model: 1967 Dodge P200 Post Office Vehicle
Hey All,
Tuesday Afternoon Update:

Removed Lorrie's Radiator (with all that THAT entails) this morning.

Loosened the Alternator and removed the Fan Belt.

Removed the Fan and Fan Pulley which made getting to the ORIGINAL Timing Tab possible.

Cleaned the ORIGINAL Timing Tab, and both edges (on each side of the groove into which fits the Fan Belt) of the Damper with an abrasive wheel in the Craftsman RotoTool.

Proceeded to paint the ORIGINAL Timing Tab, the Outer Ring and edges of the Damper gloss white.

It is drying even as this is being typed. Am going to give everything a second coat.

Once everything is dry, will install the NEW Timing Tab, and determine TDC using the newly made Piston Stop Tool.

This may not get finished today as it is already heating up outside.

Will have JPGs of everything to post before putting everything back together.

Time marches on.

JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 4:08 pm 
Offline
Turbo Slant 6

Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 12:05 pm
Posts: 871
Location: Onalaska, Texas
Car Model: 1967 Dodge P200 Post Office Vehicle
Hey All,
Tuesday Evening Update:

Have some JPGs of what was done today:

This first JPG is of the front of Damper. The white line at 2:00 O'Clock is the front edge of the ORIGINAL Timing Tab.

Image

This next JPG shows the ORIGINAL Timing Tab with the Timing Mark on the Damper at TDC.

Image

The marks on the ORIGINAL Timing Tab each indicate five degrees, with the fourth line from the left being TDC. Although it doesn't look like it, the ORIGINAL Timing Mark on the Damper is aligned with the TDC Mark on the ORIGINAL Timing Tab.

This last JPG shows the view that one gets of the ORIGINAL Timing Tab and the ORIGINAL Mark on the Damper. In case you don't know for what you are looking, the ORIGINAL Timing Tab is just to the left of the little Red Spot, which is bit of Automatic Transmission Fluid on the pavement under Lorrie.

Image

Something to remember, this view is with the Fan, Fan Pulley, and Fan Belt removed. Were they not removed, one could not see the ORIGINAL Timing Tab.

Am going to be painting the Degree Marks on the NEW Timing Tab this evening, and installing it tomorrow.

Will then go through the process of finding TDC with the Piston Stop Tool and verifying that the Damper's Outer Ring has not slipped.

Should have Lorrie all back together by this time tomorrow.

HYAW

JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 4:46 pm 
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6 Pack Dart
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 5:44 pm
Posts: 2281
Location: Eugene, Oregon
Car Model:
Make a paper copy of the original timming tab, Showing where it is bent and the bolt holes. There are guys wanting the old drivers side tabs, and you could be their hero with that information it could be snail-mailed to them.

Richard

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 5:05 pm 
Offline
Turbo Slant 6

Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 12:05 pm
Posts: 871
Location: Onalaska, Texas
Car Model: 1967 Dodge P200 Post Office Vehicle
Fopar wrote:
Make a paper copy of the original timming tab,


Hey Richard,
That could very easily be done.

Quote:
Showing where it is bent


It has a little hole where it is bent. That hole makes it possible to bend it easily there. Will get a detail shot of that.

Quote:
and the bolt holes.


There aren't any bolt holes. It is apparently spot welded to the Timing Chain Cover.

Quote:
There are guys wanting the old drivers side tabs, and you could be their hero with that information it could be snail-mailed to them. Richard


Or a CorelDRAW5 GIF could be posted here with all the dimensions, like an engineering drawing.

Will do that tomorrow, or soon thereafter.

A strange thing... The ORIGINAL Timing Tab is quite a distance from the edge of the Damper. Was kind of surprised at that.

Anyway Richard, good idea.

JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 7:26 pm 
Offline
Supercharged
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2002 9:20 pm
Posts: 13008
Location: Fircrest, WA
Car Model: 76 D100
JC- actually, if you look close, you will see that the timing tab on your motor is, in fact, bolted in place. THe early timing tabs were held on with one of the timing cover bolts and were located by a pin on the engine block that fits through a hole on the timing chain cover and timing tab. I have labeled these items in the picture you posted:

Image

The timing tab comes off (like this one I mailed off to a guy a few months ago):

Image


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 5:34 am 
Offline
Turbo Slant 6

Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 12:05 pm
Posts: 871
Location: Onalaska, Texas
Car Model: 1967 Dodge P200 Post Office Vehicle
Reed wrote:
JC- actually, if you look close, you will see that the timing tab on your motor is, in fact, bolted in place.


Hey Reed,
While cleaning that area, I felt for the edge of the the Timing Tab, up near the Bolt head and thought that there was one just before getting to the Bolt which led me to believe that the Bolt had nothing to do with holding the Timing Tab in place. Thus my comment about it being Spot Welded.

Quote:
THe early timing tabs were held on with one of the timing cover bolts and were located by a pin on the engine block that fits through a hole on the timing chain cover and timing tab. I have labeled these items in the picture you posted:


I see that now.

Quote:
The timing tab comes off (like this one I mailed off to a guy a few months ago).


Good to know. May take it off, clean, and paint it better.

Didn't get the NEW Timing Tab painted last night. Will do that this morning before heading out to do the weekly errands. That way, it will be ready to install when I get home.

Anyway, thanks for the information. This is such an education.

Hang in there.

JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor


Last edited by JCAllison on Wed May 30, 2012 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 12:20 pm 
Offline
Turbo Slant 6

Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 12:05 pm
Posts: 871
Location: Onalaska, Texas
Car Model: 1967 Dodge P200 Post Office Vehicle
Hey All,
Was figuring out how to put the Marks on the NEW Timing Tab. Have come up with the following. Would like some confirmation on it as to how accurate it is:

Lorrie's Damper is exactly 7" in diameter. Since I would be working in 1/16th of an inch, if one multiplies 7" X 16, that would mean that Lorrie's Damper is 112/16ths in diameter.

112 X 3.14159 = 351.858/16ths in circumference.

351.8 divided by 360 = .98/16th = 1 degree.

This can all be rounded off to:
1/16" = 1 degree.
1/8" = 2 degrees.
1/4" = 4 degrees.
5/16" = 5 degrees
1/2" = 8 degrees.
1" = 16 degrees.

Would THAT be close enough for a "government" vehicle? :)

Went and did the weekly errands and shopping. Got home and by the time everything was taken care of, and lunch was had, a nap ensued. NOW it's just too hot to be out working on Lorrie.

Anyway, am going to mark the NEW Timing Tab with the first mark (TDC) 2 degrees before the end of the Tab.

Since Daniel said to set the timing at 5 degrees before TDC, the next line would be 5/16" (5 degrees) before the TDC. Will then put another mark 4 degrees from that one, and another mark 4 degrees from that one, and so on.

Will have JPGs when finished.

JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:19 am 
Offline
Turbo Slant 6

Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 12:05 pm
Posts: 871
Location: Onalaska, Texas
Car Model: 1967 Dodge P200 Post Office Vehicle
Hey All,
Friday Morning Update:
Got Lorrie's NEW Timing Tab painted and marked for degrees, and then installed. The three following JPGs of the unit:

Image

Image

Image

Got Lorrie's ORIGINAL Timing Tab removed, cleaned, painted and reinstalled. The seven following JPGs are of that unit:

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

The marking of the Damper in relation to the NEW Timing Tab.

Used the Piston Stop Tool that was made last Monday to find TDC. Did it three times to confirm the position of the Number One Piston's TDC. When the NEW Damper Timing Mark is right on TDC on the NEW Timing Tab, Lorrie's ORIGINAL Damper Mark is at 1.5 degrees BEFORE TDC on the ORIGINAL Timing Tab.

After finishing the nstallation of the NEW Timing Tab, and putting the NEW Mark on Lorrie's Damper, Lorrie's Radiator was reinstalled and hooked up to the Engine and Transmission.

Need to get Distilled Water, want to get some Lucas Transmission Fix, already have Anti-freeze.

With the addition of these liquids, Lorrie will be ready to start again.

Will be taking her off the Jack Stands, and going for a test drive soon.

Have an almost completed drawing of the 1967 Dodge P200 225 Slant Six Timing Tab, complete with dimensions for those who would like to MAKE one like Lorrie's.

Anyway, the weather here is just GORGEOUS today. Mid 70s, heading for 90 this afternoon. There's a gentle breeze blowing, and there's not a cloud in the sky.

Will keep you all updated on the progress taking place here in the forest of Deep East Texas.

JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:13 am 
Offline
Supercharged
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2002 9:20 pm
Posts: 13008
Location: Fircrest, WA
Car Model: 76 D100
Sounds good! Although I recommend ATF+4 instead of Lucas Transmission Fix.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:18 am 
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Board Sponsor & Contributor

Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2002 5:39 pm
Posts: 24233
Location: North America
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JCAllison wrote:
Lucas Transmission Fix


Very bad idea. This gunk cannot help but can only hurt your transmission. And the Lucas people are notorious liars.

_________________
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Too many people who were born on third base actually believe they've hit a triple.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:05 pm 
Offline
Turbo Slant 6

Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 12:05 pm
Posts: 871
Location: Onalaska, Texas
Car Model: 1967 Dodge P200 Post Office Vehicle
Reed wrote:
Sounds good! Although I recommend ATF+4 instead of Lucas Transmission Fix.


Hey Reed,
What is "ATF+4"?

Am not at all sure that Lorrie's Transmission NEEDS any kind of additive, but thought one might help after Lorrie having set so long.

From what Daniel has posted, it looks like Lorrie's Transmission might be just as well off without any additives.

Anyway, thanks for the recommendation and the response.

JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:13 pm 
Offline
Turbo Slant 6

Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 12:05 pm
Posts: 871
Location: Onalaska, Texas
Car Model: 1967 Dodge P200 Post Office Vehicle
SlantSixDan wrote:
Very bad idea.This gunk cannot help but can only hurt your transmission.


Hey Daniel,
Well, you see? There you go!

Intentions are posted to see if they are valid. Experienced people (like yourself) share their knowledge in response.

So no Lucas Transmission Fix for Lorrie.

Is there anything you could recommend that WOULD help? Although, as was mentioned to Reed, there is no reason to believe that anything is actually needed.

Anyway, thanks for the heads-up.

Hope you are well.

JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:26 pm 
Offline
Supercharged
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2002 9:20 pm
Posts: 13008
Location: Fircrest, WA
Car Model: 76 D100
If nothing is needed, then the most I would do is a band adjustment, change the fluid and filter, and fill it up with fresh ATF+4. But then again, if nothing is needed, don't touch it!

If you do open it up, I highly recommend a TransGo shift kit. Very easy to install, and it has wonderful results. Alternatively, if you still have the original 1967 A-904 in there, I highly recommend adding part-throttle kickdown. Pat Blaise can sell you all the parts you need to add it to your valve body. I put a link to his eBay store in the "Slanted Network" forum.


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