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Electronic Ignition System for Lorrie Van Haul
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JCAllison
Turbo Slant 6


Joined: 13 Jun 2008
Posts: 829
Location: Onalaska, Texas

Post subject: Electronic Ignition System for Lorrie Van Haul (Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:05 am) Reply with quote

Hey All,
As you may or may not know, it was two weeks ago today that Lorrie was backing out of the driveway to go to the Inspection Station to get her NEW Inspection Sticker, and just all of a sudden her mighty 225 Slant Six Engine just faded away, died, and wouldn't restart.

Up until that point, she had been running superbly.

The Condenser was replaced, and she started up again. She would idle, but wouldn't rev up. When given some throttle, she would run rough, gasp for air, misfire, and would end up dying.

But eventually she refused to even start.

The Ignition Coil was replaced. That didn't help.

The Ignition Coil to Distributor Wire was replaced. That didn't help.

The Points were replaced. That didn't help.

The Rotor was replaced. That didn't help.

The Distributor Cap was replaced. That didn't help.

She already had NEW Spark Plugs (NKG ZFR5N).

The only parts that have not been replaced are the Spark Plug Wires.

The Bendix Stromberg Carburetor was cleaned and reinstalled, and that didn't help.

Have checked out EVERYTHING that could be checked out and EVERYTHING seems to be in PERFECT working order.

There is current to the "+" Terminal of the Ignition Coil as it has been checked with a Test Light.

The Test Light Flashes when held to the "-" Terminal of the Ignition Coil and the Engine cranked.

The Test Light Flashes when held to the Wire connected to the Points in the Distributor and the Engine Cranked.

Still, Lorrie Van Haul's mighty 225 Slant Six Engine will not start and run.

There IS one thing that doesn't check out and that is when an attempt to start Lorrie was made and she fired a couple of cylinders and then settled into a fire-less cranking, the Wire from the Ignition Coil was pulled out of the Distributor and held near a ground and it would spark a few times and then quit.

Yesterday, the NKG ZFR5N Spark Plugs were cleaned, and the gap set at 0.035, and reinstalled.

Attempted to start her. She fired about three cylinders and then went into the usual no-fire cranking. Pulled the Wire from the Ignition Coil out of the Distributor and held near a ground and it sparked a few times and then quit.

A very good friend who has been following the saga of the renovation of Lorrie Van Haul for the past two and a half, years, upon reading about this, declared that what Lorrie NEEDS is an Electronic Ignition System, and he has generously offered to spring for one.

And this morning, he E-Mailed me with the following information.

Quote:
http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/manciniracing17.html

On this page is listed the following:

Slant Six - 198 & 225 Electronic Ignition Conversion Pkg
Update your lean burn slant 6.

Kit includes Remanufactured electronic distributor, Mopar Performance Orange ECU, Wiring harness and ballast resistor.

Complete instruction sheet is included.
$189.95
MRE3690789


The first thing that was noticed was that this system is to "Update your lean burn Slant Six"

Lorrie is NOT a "Lean Burn Slant Six".

This friend wants to have this system sent to me from Mancini Racing.

I have requested that he hold off for a bit until is is ascertained for sure that this is what we want to do.

It is noted that nowhere is there any mention of this Mancini Setup being an HEI System.

Have read Daniel Stern's Discussion of the HEI System here on the SlantSixForum, and at this point, don't know enough about the subject to really make an informed decision.

BTW, the NKG ZFR5N Spark Plugs were severely fuel fouled, and even though they were cleaned, there have been those who say that they might not work properly.

Have ordered a new set of NKG ZFR5Ns. They will be here this evening, and will be installing them tomorrow morning to see if they will get Lorrie to start and run.

Would like to have some comments on this, and some recommendations as what would be the best way to proceed.

Thanks in advance for any assistance.

JC



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Mroldfart2u
EFI Slant 6


Joined: 02 Feb 2011
Posts: 495
Location: Amarillo, Tx USA

Post subject: Re: Electronic Ignition System for Lorrie Van Haul (Tue Jul 10, 2012 8:30 am) Reply with quote

JCAllison wrote:


A very good friend who has been following the saga of the renovation of Lorrie Van Haul for the past two and a half, years, upon reading about this, declared that what Lorrie NEEDS is an Electronic Ignition System, and he has generously offered to spring for one.

And this morning, he E-Mailed me with the following information.


Quote:
http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/manciniracing17.html

On this page is listed the following:

Slant Six - 198 & 225 Electronic Ignition Conversion Pkg
Update your lean burn slant 6.

Kit includes Remanufactured electronic distributor, Mopar Performance Orange ECU, Wiring harness and ballast resistor.

Complete instruction sheet is included.
$189.95
MRE3690789
Quote:


The first thing that was noticed was that this system is to "Update your lean burn Slant Six"

Lorrie is NOT a "Lean Burn Slant Six".


That is known, and after looking @ the Mancini site, that is the correct Kit... (even tho LVH is NOT Lean Burn. The kit still has needed Dist, which is the main part of kit... And it uses the Mopar Orange Box.
Quote:


This friend wants to have this system sent to me from Mancini Racing.

I have requested that he hold off for a bit until is is ascertained for sure that this is what we want to do.


That is entirely up to YOU in the end. It will do away with points and condenser. And will have a reman distributor.
Quote:


It is noted that nowhere is there any mention of this Mancini Setup being an HEI System.


It isnt an HEI, its the Mopar electronic ignition system. Which IS better than the old points style system.
Quote:


Have read Daniel Stern's Discussion of the HEI System here on the SlantSixForum, and at this point, don't know enough about the subject to really make an informed decision.


It is still your decision but you can still do the HEI conversion. It takes the place of the Orange ECU Box. The distributor is the trigger is all. The distributor is the main part for YOUR conversion, as its needed for aforementioned triggering.
Quote:


BTW, the NKG ZFR5N Spark Plugs were severely fuel fouled, and even though they were cleaned, there have been those who say that they might not work properly.

Have ordered a new set of NKG ZFR5Ns. They will be here this evening, and will be installing them tomorrow morning to see if they will get Lorrie to start and run.

Would like to have some comments on this, and some recommendations as what would be the best way to proceed.

Thanks in advance for any assistance.

JC


I would try the new plugs first then decide on the conversion kit.. I would go for the kit in either case. The Kit will eliminate the points etc... Even if you dont change it over right away.. JMHO



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Last edited by Mroldfart2u on Tue Jul 10, 2012 8:35 am; edited 1 time in total
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Reed
Supercharged


Joined: 03 Nov 2002
Posts: 10403
Location: Fircrest, WA

Post subject: (Tue Jul 10, 2012 8:30 am) Reply with quote

(1) You are right- Lorrie does not have lean burn.

(2) The kits that include the orange box should be avoided for several reasons:

(a) The "orange box" referred to in the advertising is the ignition control module. Years ago, you could buy performance ignition modules from your local Mopar parts department that were orange. These were the "hot" item for street/strip use. The modern "orange boxes" are made in China and are junk. Further, the increased performance potential of the orange box is pretty much useless on a stock slant six.

(b) The timing advance curve in the distributors that come in these kits are set up for drag racing in a light vehicle, not daily driving in a heavy old van. You will end up with poor performance and fuel economy.

(3) $189.95 is an exorbitant amount of money to pay for an electronic ignition upgrade.

(4) HEI is a superior ignition system to the Mopar electronic ignition system and can be installed for MUCH cheaper than $190. I highly recommend HEI.

For Lorrie, I recommend you try and find a good condition used slant six distributor from a 70s or 80s era slant six truck or van with electronic ignition. You can then use that distributor as a base to work from in converting Lorrie to HEI. Any standard electronic ignition slant six distributor will "work," but using a truck or van distributor will get you closer to the optimal timing advance curve for your truck. In fact, I recommend you use the weights, springs, and governor plate (if possible) out of Lorrie's original distributor in the electronic ignition distributor.

I believe you could put together an HEI system with a new HEI module, a used distributor, a heat sink, a relay, and all the wiring and terminals for well under $100. I have converted several cars and vans to HEI and I have always been happy with the results.

HERE is an OK deal on a Mopar remanufactured distributor ($60 plus $10 shipping), but I bet you could find one much cheaper form a board member or by searching around locally.

HERE is a $25 distributor plus $15 shipping.

HERE is a $40 distributor out of a Massey Ferguson combine that has free shipping.

HERE and HERE are $50 with free shipping distributors out of early 70s slant powered trucks. Either of these would be a good starting point for you.

With any used distributor you get you will want to completely disassemble it, clean it, lube it, and verify that the vacuum advance can is working. In your case, I would recommend taking apart Lorrie's original points distributor, saving the weights and springs and governor plate and vacuum advance, then installing just the electronic pickup out of the electronic ignition distributor. The only caveat is I am about 50% sure that the points governor cannot be used with the electronic ignition pickup assembly due to the points rubbing block being part of the governor. In that case you would use the governor out of the electronic ignition distributor but the weights and springs out of the points distributor.

Finally, one of the best coils to use with the HEI system is an "E core" coil. I have used stock coils with HEI, but an E core coil will give a bit hotter spark. You can get them for cheap since they were used on thousands of 90s era Ford and GM vehicles.



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SlantSixDan
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Post subject: (Tue Jul 10, 2012 9:39 am) Reply with quote

Don't get that conversion kit you linked. The orange box is pathetic and the distributor it comes with is completely unsuitable for street use. Follow instructions at the HEI upgrade article.



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JCAllison
Turbo Slant 6


Joined: 13 Jun 2008
Posts: 829
Location: Onalaska, Texas

Post subject: Re: Electronic Ignition System for Lorrie Van Haul (Tue Jul 10, 2012 9:46 am) Reply with quote

Mroldfart2u wrote:
That is known, and after looking @ the Mancini site, that is the correct Kit... (even tho LVH is NOT Lean Burn). The kit still has needed Dist, which is the main part of kit... And it uses the Mopar Orange Box.


Hey Dusty,
Wouldn't it STILL be best to go to HEI instead of the Mopar Electronic Ignition System?

Quote:
That is entirely up to YOU in the end. It will do away with points and condenser. And will have a reman distributor.


BUT, it is STILL not an HEI System.

Quote:
It isn't an HEI, its the Mopar electronic ignition system. Which IS better than the old points style system.


But still not as good as an HEI system?

Quote:
It is still your decision


That is why I'm having this discussion.

Quote:
but you can still do the HEI conversion. It takes the place of the Orange ECU Box. The distributor is the trigger is all. The distributor is the main part for YOUR conversion, as its needed for aforementioned triggering.


Have read Reed's post (the one following YOURS) and he has listed a number of Electronic Ignition Distributors.

Quote:
I would try the new plugs first then decide on the conversion kit..


That is in the works.

Quote:
I would go for the kit in either case. The Kit will eliminate the points etc... Even if you don't change it over right away.. JMHO


As Reed has stated, the Mancini Kit seems to be over-priced, not made for a street driven Postal Van, and the issue with the Orange Boxes being made in China is disturbing to say the least.

Anyway, thanks for the response.

The quest continues.

BTW, check your PMs at FMGP, if you already haven't.

Hope you are well. Stay in touch.

JC



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Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Mail Van - 225 Slant Six - Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor
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JCAllison
Turbo Slant 6


Joined: 13 Jun 2008
Posts: 829
Location: Onalaska, Texas

Post subject: (Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:06 am) Reply with quote

Reed wrote:
(1) You are right- Lorrie does not have lean burn.

(2) The kits that include the orange box should be avoided for several reasons:

(a) The "orange box" referred to in the advertising is the ignition control module. Years ago, you could buy performance ignition modules from your local Mopar parts department that were orange. These were the "hot" item for street/strip use. The modern "orange boxes" are made in China and are junk. Further, the increased performance potential of the orange box is pretty much useless on a stock slant six.

(b) The timing advance curve in the distributors that come in these kits are set up for drag racing in a light vehicle, not daily driving in a heavy old van. You will end up with poor performance and fuel economy.

(3) $189.95 is an exorbitant amount of money to pay for an electronic ignition upgrade.

(4) HEI is a superior ignition system to the Mopar electronic ignition system and can be installed for MUCH cheaper than $190. I highly recommend HEI.


Hey Reed,
Though not having any specific reasons, such as those you list, the Mancini Kit just didn't feel right to me. Thanks for putting those feelings into words. Am going to relay them to Lorrie's Ignition System benefactor.

Quote:
For Lorrie, I recommend you try and find a good condition used slant six distributor from a 70s or 80s era slant six truck or van with electronic ignition. You can then use that distributor as a base to work from in converting Lorrie to HEI.


That sounds MUCH better to me.

Quote:
Any standard electronic ignition slant six distributor will "work," but using a truck or van distributor will get you closer to the optimal timing advance curve for your truck. In fact, I recommend you use the weights, springs, and governor plate (if possible) out of Lorrie's original distributor in the electronic ignition distributor.


Alright.

Quote:
I believe you could put together an HEI system with a new HEI module, a used distributor, a heat sink, a relay, and all the wiring and terminals for well under $100.


Which would be just WONDERFUL.

Quote:
I have converted several cars and vans to HEI and I have always been happy with the results.


I trust your judgement.

Quote:
HERE

is an OK deal on a Mopar remanufactured distributor ($60 plus $10 shipping), but I bet you could find one much cheaper form a board member or by searching around locally.


Searching around locally is a non-issue as there are absolutely NO salvage yards in the area.

Quote:
HERE

is a $25 distributor plus $15 shipping.


Quote:
HERE is a $40 distributor out of a Massey Ferguson combine that has free shipping.


Quote:
HERE


and

Quote:
HERE

are $50 with free shipping distributors out of early 70s slant powered trucks.


Am amazed at your ability to find all this stuff!

Quote:
Either of these would be a good starting point for you.


Will relay this information to Lorrie's Electronic Ignition benefactor also.

Quote:
With any used distributor you get you will want to completely disassemble it, clean it, lube it, and verify that the vacuum advance can is working. In your case, I would recommend taking apart Lorrie's original points distributor, saving the weights and springs and governor plate and vacuum advance, then installing just the electronic pickup out of the electronic ignition distributor. The only caveat is I am about 50% sure that the points governor cannot be used with the electronic ignition pickup assembly due to the points rubbing block being part of the governor. In that case you would use the governor out of the electronic ignition distributor but the weights and springs out of the points distributor.


Alright. Have never done any of this before, but the whole reason for having taken on the job of redoing Lorrie is to learn how to do all this stuff.

Quote:
Finally, one of the best coils to use with the HEI system is an "E core" coil. I have used stock coils with HEI, but an E core coil will give a bit hotter spark. You can get them for cheap since they were used on thousands of 90s era Ford and GM vehicles.


Alright.

Reed, thank you so much for all the GREAT information.

It seems that even though Lorrie has done well in the past, she doesn't seem to be doing so well presently. What it is going to take to get her back to being her old reliable self is to do a complete and thorough job of fixing each and every thing properly. Not only will she benefit, but I get to learn how to do all of this.

Hope this finds YOU doing well.

Thanks again.

JC



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Mroldfart2u
EFI Slant 6


Joined: 02 Feb 2011
Posts: 495
Location: Amarillo, Tx USA

Post subject: Re: Electronic Ignition System for Lorrie Van Haul (Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:11 am) Reply with quote

JCAllison wrote:


Hey Dusty,
Wouldn't it STILL be best to go to HEI instead of the Mopar Electronic Ignition System?


Yes
Quote:


BUT, it is STILL not an HEI System.


Correct

Quote:


But still not as good as an HEI system?


Right

Quote:


That is why I'm having this discussion.

Have read Reed's post (the one following YOURS) and he has listed a number of Electronic Ignition Distributors.


Yes @ a very reduced price in comparison. I have never done business with MR, and frankly dont know how the distributor would be set up, I dont know if its set up for performance or for just a conversion. Reed make very good points though on the truck/van distributor timing curves vs automobile... Actually ALL you need is an electronic distributor and a coil for electronic ignition, plus the HEI module. (the module takes the PLACE of the Mopar ECU 'boxes'.
Quote:


That is in the works.


Alright.

Quote:


As Reed has stated, the Mancini Kit seems to be over-priced, not made for a street driven Postal Van, and the issue with the Orange Boxes being made in China is disturbing to say the least.


I agree.
Quote:


Anyway, thanks for the response.

The quest continues.

BTW, check your PMs at FMGP, if you already haven't.

Hope you are well. Stay in touch.

JC


Understand that, and today has started a bit better than the last few... Smile



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JCAllison
Turbo Slant 6


Joined: 13 Jun 2008
Posts: 829
Location: Onalaska, Texas

Post subject: (Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:17 am) Reply with quote

SlantSixDan wrote:
Don't get that conversion kit you linked.


Hey Daniel,
Had begun to think that YOU had given up on me! Smile Am NOT going to get the Mancini kit.

Quote:
The orange box is pathetic and the distributor it comes with is completely unsuitable for street use.


It didn't "feel" right to me either.

Quote:
Follow instructions at the HEI upgrade article.


I sent Lorrie's Electronic Ignition benefactor the URL to that article so that he could read the post that you referenced. I have read it numerous times, and have also accumulated all the Parts Numbers that it lists into a folder, and have done searches for each and every one of the units.

Daniel, am really serious about doing what is done on Lorrie as well as is possible. That there is a LOT that I don't know is like speed bumps. They slow me down, but they don't stop me.

I have a great deal of patience, and am willing to learn. I'm not proud, am willing to take instructions, and do whatever it takes to make things work properly. It may take my having to do something over and over until it is done right, but practice makes perfect. And believe it or not, I AM improving!

Anyway, thanks for the caveat.

Hope you are well.

JC



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JCAllison
Turbo Slant 6


Joined: 13 Jun 2008
Posts: 829
Location: Onalaska, Texas

Post subject: Re: Electronic Ignition System for Lorrie Van Haul (Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:27 am) Reply with quote

Mroldfart2u wrote:
Have read Reed's post (the one following YOURS) and he has listed a number of Electronic Ignition Distributors.


Hey Dusty,
YES.

Quote:
Yes @ a very reduced price in comparison. I have never done business with MR, and frankly dont know how the distributor would be set up, I dont know if its set up for performance or for just a conversion. Reed make very good points though on the truck/van distributor timing curves vs automobile... Actually ALL you need is an electronic distributor and a coil for electronic ignition, plus the HEI module. (the module takes the PLACE of the Mopar ECU 'boxes'.


And in actuality, THAT is why Lorrie's Electronic Ignition benefactor was told to kind of hold off on the actual purchasing of anything until we had had the discussion exploring the subject in depth.

Quote:
Understand that, and today has started a bit better than the last few... Smile


What in many cases seems to be just wasted days, actually have as their purpose the taking of the time to fully comprehend what is needed, then what to get to do what is needed, then finding out how to do what is needed, and finally proceeding with doing what is needed.

Everything will happen when it is supposed to happen.

Am just hoping that I get to last long enough to be around when it finally DOES happen.

Hang in there, my friend.

JC



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emsvitil
Supercharged


Joined: 12 May 2005
Posts: 5094
Location: So California

Post subject: (Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:39 pm) Reply with quote

Have you tried running a wire directly from the battery positive post to the + post of the distributor?

(don't run to long, points aren't made for that kind of amps)


If it runs, you can start working on the supply voltage for the coil....



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JCAllison
Turbo Slant 6


Joined: 13 Jun 2008
Posts: 829
Location: Onalaska, Texas

Post subject: (Tue Jul 10, 2012 3:33 pm) Reply with quote

emsvitil wrote:
Have you tried running a wire directly from the battery positive post to the + post of the distributor?


Hey Mr. E,
Actually, THAT is the way Lorrie is presently wired, but with this difference: There is a Fuse, and a Switch in between the 12 Volt Source, and the "+" Terminal of the Ignition Coil.

Here is a diagram of Lorrie's Ignition System.



As you can see, when the START Switch is activated, the "+" Terminal of the Ignition Coil is getting a full 12 Volts from the Battery.

Quote:
(don't run to long, points aren't made for that kind of amps)


The "+" Terminal of the Ignition Coil get the full 12 Volts ONLY when the Starter is cranking the Engine.

Quote:
If it runs, you can start working on the supply voltage for the coil....


The supply voltage is exactly as it should be. Alas, though Lorrie was running two weeks ago, she hasn't run normally since.

Am personally convinced that there is something amiss in the Distributor, and that is the reason for going to an HEI Electronic Ignition System.

Am getting a NEW set of NKG ZFR5N Spark Plugs to be installed tomorrow morning, and we will see if the problem was the fuel fouled Spark Plugs that were in her when she decided to stop functioning. Will let you know what happens.

Anyway, thanks for the suggestion.

JC



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JCAllison
Turbo Slant 6


Joined: 13 Jun 2008
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Post subject: (Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:59 pm) Reply with quote

Hey All, and especially Reed,
Here are the parts that are listed in Daniel's HEI Conversion article, along with the prices and the URLs from which they can be acquired

HEI module:
ACDelco D-1906, $28.52.
http://www.amazon.com/ACDelco-D1906-Control-Module-Assembly/dp/B0013FZX5S

Standard-Bluestreak LX-301 $41.81
http://www.amazon.com/Standard-Motor-Products-LX301-Ignition/dp/B000CPPX64

Standard Motor Products LX301 Ignition Control Module $9.95
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Standard-Motor-Products-LX301-Ignition-Control-Module-/251093110373

Ignition Coil:
Standard BlueStreak #FD-478X $38.74
http://www.theautopartsshop.com/ignition-coil/stdfd478x.html

Connectors:
Standard S-539 Connector $22.14
http://www.autopartswarehouse.com/sku/Standard/Connectors/SIS539.html

Distributor:
Chrysler Electronic Ignition Distributor w/ single pickup, vacuum advance.
NOS Slant Six Electronic Truck Distributor. $90.00 + Shipping.
Ray Orme <ocpnwi@gmail.com>

Is there anything else that is going to be needed?

Comments welcome.

Thanks in advance.

JC



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Fopar
6 Pack Dart


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Post subject: (Wed Jul 11, 2012 6:08 pm) Reply with quote

Some form of heat sink and the heat sink paste. Old computer processer heat sink work well.

Richard



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Joshua Skinner
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Post subject: (Wed Jul 11, 2012 6:16 pm) Reply with quote

Too bad there are no wrecking yards around you. I got my coil, bracket and heat sink off an LT1 powered Caprice for less than $10. The distributor I got for $25. My conversion with misc wire connectors only cost me about $40.



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Mroldfart2u
EFI Slant 6


Joined: 02 Feb 2011
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Post subject: (Wed Jul 11, 2012 6:26 pm) Reply with quote

Fopar wrote:
Some form of heat sink and the heat sink paste. Old computer processer heat sink work well.

Richard


Fopar he lives in a very rural part of east Texas, and his nearest Parts store is 20 miles away (i think is what he has said) and then the town only has a population of a little over 5000... So heat sinks and parts like that will be hard to find, as he has no pick a parts close either. With that being said......

Will help but it isnt absolutely necessary.(the heat sink) MO of course, but will need a place to mount it. The paste yes, but should come with the module.

JC that sums it up. Will need a few spade connectors (4 total) for the module, 3 being the 'normal' 1/4" sized and one 3/16" sized. Plus a little Wire, colors of your choice. Which can be bought locally.

With that said I must rustle up some vittles... Hope the rest of the evening turns out good for you JC... Till the parts pour in... Cool



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