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Lorrie Van Haul Has A New Quirk!
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JCAllison
Turbo Slant 6


Joined: 13 Jun 2008
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Location: Onalaska, Texas

Post subject: Lorrie Van Haul Has A New Quirk! (Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:56 am) Reply with quote

Hey All,
Well, Lorrie is up to her old tricks of doing things that she is not meant to do. Here is a description of what happened a while back.

We were on our way home from Livingston, there was a strange harmonic vibration that was on about a two second cycle. It would thrummm for two seconds and then quit for two seconds. This was not normal for Lorrie. Then all of a sudden the harmonic vibration quit and everything smoothed out. BUT, then Lorrie's Ammeter quit showing any charge.

We made it home and before shutting Lorrie down, got out the Digital MultiMeter and checked the Battery's Voltage. It was at 12.57 Volts. Revved the Mighty 225 Slant Six and it should have read 14.5 Volts. It went to 12.56 Volts.

Lorrie either has an Alternator problem (that could have been what the thrumming harmonic was), or it could be a Voltage Regulator problem, or it could be the Ammeter. My best guess was that the Alternator has fritzed.

Fortunately, there was another Alternator here, AND another electronic Voltage Regulator. So went out at 6:30 the next morning to change Lorrie's Alternator. Removed the Alternator, and after the Alternator was out, it was noticed that one of the 30 Amp Fuses on the Fuse Panel was seen to be burnt!

Replaced the burnt Fuse with the NEW Fuse. Finished installing the Alternator, hooked up the Negative Cable on the Battery, turned on the Run Switch, hit the Start Switch and Lorrie's mighty 225 Slant Six Engine fairly lept to life, with the Ammeter showing a 30 Amp charge, settling down to about a 5 Amp charge.

Then just to see, the newly installed 30 Amp Fuse was removed. The Engine kept running, but the Ammeter immediately stopped showing any charge. Concluded that there was probably nothing wrong with the original Alternator, and had the Fuses been checked first, probably would not have had to swap out the Alternator.

Well, yesterday, we were once again out and about and once again it was noticed that Lorrie's Ammeter wasn't showing a charge.

Got her home and checked on the Fuse, and sure enough it was blown. So without messing with the Alternator, a NEW Fuse was installed. It should have been a 30 Amp Fuse, and there were four brand new 30 Amp Fuses here, but they turned out to be too long to fit into the Fuse Panel. So a NEW 25 Amp Fuse was installed. Lorrie started right up, but the Ammeter still didn't show a charge.

Had been out all day and was too tired to mess with it, besides it was late afternoon and the temperature was too hot to be outside. So waited till this morning. Went out to work on Lorrie. Found the NEW 25 Amp Fuse blown! Checked the other Fuses in the Fuse Panel, and the one that is in the Headlight Circuit was a 30 Amp Fuse. Since the Headlights weren't going to be used, THAT Fuse was put where the blown Fuse had been installed.

Lorrie started right up, the Fuse didn't blow, BUT the Ammeter still didn't show a charge.

So now, that brings us to what caused the Fuse to blow? Remember there was this two second thrumming harmonic vibration that went on for maybe four minutes as soon as Lorrie was on Highway 190 and moving at flank speed.

Am NOW thinking that after starting Lorrie's mighty 225 Slant Six Engine that the Starter Bendix didn't disengage from the Flywheel Gear, and the Starter was being turned by the Engine making it act as a Generator which was putting more electricity in the line than the Fuse could handle. Is THAT possible?

In light of this NEW suspicion, am now of the opinion that the other Alternator is fritzed, and probably so is the one presently in Lorrie.

The Fuse that gets blown is in one of the two circuits that supply the Run Switch with current. The circuit goes FROM the Fuse TO the Run Switch and then FROM the Run Switch TO the "Ignition" Terminal of the Voltage Regulator.

Am going to be taking the present Alternator out of Lorrie and taking BOTH of them to Smith Auto Electric to see if they are both fritzed.

This may be a more serious problem than suspected. It could be that the Starter Bendix is not functioning properly which would entail either fixing it, or getting a NEW Starter. Hopefully THAT will fix the problem. BUT it may be that it is the Flywheel that is the culprit, and THAT would be a MAJOR problem to fix.

Nonetheless, the situation is that Lorrie has once again given me reason to distrust her. When she is running alright, she is just FANTASTIC, but she seems to figure out stuff to do to cause her to malfunction. I am saddened.

Anyway, till this problem gets set right, Lorrie is not drivable.

Any comments about this situation would be very much appreciated.

Hope this finds you all doing well.

JC



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Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Mail Van - 225 Slant Six - Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor
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JCAllison
Turbo Slant 6


Joined: 13 Jun 2008
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Location: Onalaska, Texas

Post subject: Re: Lorrie Van Haul Has A New Quirk! (Sun Aug 18, 2013 7:42 am) Reply with quote

Hey All,
Here is the wiring diagram of Lorrie Van Haul's HEI Ignition and Charging system. The Fuse that blows in on the far right end of the Fuse Panel. And I know that there aren't any Spark Plug Wires shown, but Lorrie has a full set of MSD 8mm Wires.



Any insight into what is causing this problem would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

JC



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Reed
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Joined: 03 Nov 2002
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Post subject: (Sun Aug 18, 2013 8:31 am) Reply with quote

Are the red "S" box and the blue "R" box the ignition switch(es)?



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olafla
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Post subject: (Sun Aug 18, 2013 8:36 am) Reply with quote

Quote:
Am NOW thinking that after starting Lorrie's mighty 225 Slant Six Engine that the Starter Bendix didn't disengage from the Flywheel Gear, and the Starter was being turned by the Engine making it act as a Generator which was putting more electricity in the line than the Fuse could handle. Is THAT possible?


I am not familiar with your health situation, so I hope I am not insulting you, but you have to be totally deaf to ignore a starter churning along while driving!

I recently replaced my starter because it didn't disengage, and I made most heads turn as I slowly rode a few blocks to get home, it makes a hell of a noise!

If you disengage all fuses, and start and run the engine with only start and charge circuits attached - no other parts of the circuit, you could measure the charge voltage. if it OK then, the problems are elsewhere. Start by attaching the fuses one by one until something blows. It seems you protect the battery with a fuse, so when running without the fusebox, I suggest you use an external fuse in every part of the circuit to protect the parts.

BTW, bad diodes in the alternator can actually make a noticable noise, but it's a bit unusual that the alternator quits completely, it usually start by giving you shimmering lights, or reduced charging, unless it has been shorted bad. But then you probably would have smelled it too...

Olaf



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JCAllison
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Post subject: (Sun Aug 18, 2013 8:47 am) Reply with quote

Reed wrote:
Are the red "S" box and the blue "R" box the ignition switch(es)?


Hey Reed,
How have you been? Yes. The Red "S" Box is the Start Switch. The Blue "R" Box is the Run Switch. As you can see, the "+" side of the Battery goes to the Fuse Panel, and the Current goes through the Fuse to the "S" Switch which sends it to the Starter. The Current also goes through two 30 Amp Fuses to the the "R" Switch. One Circuit in that Switch goes to the Control Module and then on to the "+" Side of the Ignition Coil. The other Circuit in the "R" Switch goes to the "Ignition Terminal" of the Electronic Voltage Regulator. It is THAT Circuit that experiences the blown Fuse.

Lorrie has been running just FABULOUSLY for quite some time. Starts right up, idles great, runs great, and then back in the last week of July, she all of a sudden blew the fuse, and possibly the Alternator. The main symptom was that the Ammeter quit showing a charge.

Am going to be taking the Alternators to Smith Auto Electric tomorrow to have them checked, and rebuilt if necessary.

Whaddaya think?

Anyway, thanks for the response. Was beginning to think I was being ignored! Smile

Hope you are doing well, and hanging in there.

JC



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Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Mail Van - 225 Slant Six - Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor
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Reed
Supercharged


Joined: 03 Nov 2002
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Post subject: (Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:35 am) Reply with quote

I am doing well. I still have most of my health, so I can't really complain about much.

I would get the voltage regulator checked as well as the alternator. I would also check the insulation on the wire between the blowing fuse and the voltage regulator. The voltage regulator should never see 30+ amps, nor should any other component that is powered through your start switch. Since the 30 amp fuse is b,owing, I think there is an intermittent short somewhere in that circuit. It could be that the ignition switch has failed or the wiring has been rubbing against a panel and has rubbed the insulation off, or the insulation on the wire has dried out and cracked.



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JCAllison
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Post subject: (Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:58 am) Reply with quote

Reed wrote:
I am doing well. I still have most of my health, so I can't really complain about much.


Hey Reed,
Good to hear. Was into Houston on August 1, 2013 to see the Liver MDeities, and from the results of the latest Blood Test and an MRI, we are being cautiously optimistic because all the indications are that this damned liver problem is going away. We can only hope! Smile

Quote:
I would get the voltage regulator checked as well as the alternator.


Alright. There is another Voltage Regulator here. Identical to the one that is presently in Lorrie.

Quote:
I would also check the insulation on the wire between the blowing fuse and the voltage regulator.


Alright.

Quote:
The voltage regulator should never see 30+ amps, nor should any other component that is powered through your start switch.


The only thing that is actuated by the Start Switch is the Starter.

Quote:
Since the 30 amp fuse is blowing, I think there is an intermittent short somewhere in that circuit. It could be that the ignition switch has failed or the wiring has been rubbing against a panel and has rubbed the insulation off, or the insulation on the wire has dried out and cracked.


Will check all that carefully.

Reed, the first time that this happened, the only strangeness was the two second on/two second off harmonic vibration, and it lasted for only about two or three minutes as Lorrie was going along at about 40 MPH. Then it suddenly just quit and everything was fine except the Ammeter was no longer showing a charge. Surmised later that the Engine was turning the starter. But have since found that THAT would have been REALLY noticeable. But as mentioned previously, the only thing unusual was that strange, and small harmonic vibration, and the non-charge showing on the Ammeter.

The second and last time that this happened, everything was fine. Parked Lorrie and went into the pharmacy. Came back out, started Lorrie up, and on the way home noticed that the Ammeter was not charging. Got home and checked the Fuse. It was blown. Replaced the Fuse, but still no charge showed on the Ammeter, making me think that the Alternator is non-functional.

Hope to get this problem sorted out soon.

Lorrie has been known to do this kind of thing just to get attention. I know many here consider these old vehicles as just pieces of machinery, but my experience with Lorrie Van Haul and Ms. American is that they are "alive" by dint of having been "imbued".

Anyway, I'll hang in here if YOU'LL hang in there.

JC



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Reed
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Post subject: (Sun Aug 18, 2013 11:49 am) Reply with quote

Hanging in.

The harmonic vibration sounds like the alternator. It may have a bearing going out or some other hard part fault that shorted to the case or something.

I read your wiring diagram as indicating that you had a separate push button for the starter. If the starter motor and ignition 1 and 2 circuits are all controlled by the same switch then I would also keep the possibility of a faulty switch in mind.



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JCAllison
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Post subject: (Sun Aug 18, 2013 12:09 pm) Reply with quote

Reed wrote:
Hanging in.


Hey Reed,
Me too!

Quote:
The harmonic vibration sounds like the alternator.


But the harmonic vibration lasted only about 2-3 minutes at 40 MPH. And when the Alternator was removed, the shaft turns smoothly and has no side play.

Quote:
It may have a bearing going out or some other hard part fault that shorted to the case or something.


Smith Auto Electric will check it out, hopefully tomorrow if I can get a ride.

Quote:
I read your wiring diagram as indicating that you had a separate push button for the starter.


Yes. But there are two separate switches. The "S" Switch is push ON/release OFF. The "R" Switch is two position switch. Push ON in one direction and it stays on till one pushes it OFF in the other direction.

Quote:
If the starter motor and ignition 1 and 2 circuits are all controlled by the same switch then I would also keep the possibility of a faulty switch in mind.


They are not controlled by the same switch. There are two separate switches, and the "R" Switch has two separate Circuits.

Anyway, will get this figured out this coming week. As Gilda Radner's character Roseanna Danna Danna would say: "It's always something!"

Have a great what's left of the weekend.

JC



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JCAllison
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Post subject: (Mon Aug 19, 2013 8:19 am) Reply with quote

Hey All,
Monday morning update: Took the Alternator and the electronic Voltage Regulator to Smith Auto Electric this morning. They couldn't test the Voltage Regulator. They tested the Alternator and it is fine.

Wesley at Smith Auto Electric said to check all the wiring for shorts, and reinstall the Voltage Regulator. Then using a test light, see if it is getting current with Lorrie's mighty 225 Slant Six Engine running. If it IS getting current, then check using the test light to see if it is putting out any current. If there is no light on the Field Terminal, then the Voltage Regulator is bad.

After checking the wiring, if nothing is found to be amiss, then the problem is most likely the Voltage Regulator had just gone bad.

While out, got a supply of 30A/32V Fuses at Auto Zone.

Will keep you updated as events happen.

Hope you all are well.

JC



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JCAllison
Turbo Slant 6


Joined: 13 Jun 2008
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Location: Onalaska, Texas

Post subject: Re: Lorrie Van Haul Has A New Quirk! (Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:34 am) Reply with quote

Hey All,
Monday afternoon update: Pulled Lorrie's Dash Panel and checked it carefully. The connections were all perfectly tight. None of the wires were chafed or with broken insulation. All the circuits were tested and everything was fine.

Reinstalled the same Voltage Regulator. Turned on the Run Switch and tested to see if the Ignition Terminal of the Voltage Regulator wsas getting current. It was. Started Lorrie's mighty 225 Slant Six Engine. Using a test light, checked to see if the Voltage Regulator was putting OUT any current. It wasn't!

Wesley at Smith Auto Electric says if there is no light on the Field Terminal with the Engine running then the Voltage Regulator is bad. Most likely the Voltage Regulator had just stopped functioning.

Also the Ammeter showed no charge.

AND the 30A/32V Fuse in the circuit that feeds the Ignition Terminal of the Voltage Regulator got blown!

Uninstalled the Voltage Regulator, installed the NEW Voltage Regulator, put in a NEW Fuse, started the mighty 225 Slant Six and the Ammeter immediately showed a 30 Amp charge for about two seconds and then went down to about 8-10 Amps, and once the Battery is fully charged, it will go down to usual 4-5 Amps.

Anyway, apparently the problem was the Voltage Regulator.

Should this ever happen again, the first thing to check is the Voltage Regulator Field Terminal with a Test Light. If no light, the Voltage Regulator is bad.

Am going to contact the people from whom the Voltage Regulator was acquired and see what they have to say about this.

Anyway, Lorrie is back up and running.

Will keep you all updated.

JC



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Reed
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Post subject: (Mon Aug 19, 2013 12:05 pm) Reply with quote

Hooray!



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JCAllison
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Post subject: (Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:09 pm) Reply with quote

Reed wrote:
Hooray!


Hey Reed,
Looked at the wiring diagram in the Chilton's Dodge Van Manual that is here and it shows a 6 Amp Fuse to protect the electronic Alternator Regulator. Lorrie had a 30A/32V Fuse in that position. Have removed the 30A/32V Fuse, but didn't have a 6 Amp Fuse, so put in a 7.5 Amp Fuse. Hopefully THAT will blow the Fuse before it BBQs the Alternator Regulator.

The Alternator Regulator is an FBO Systems VR1. Went to their website and accessed their Live Chat. Communicated with Don. He said that this is the first instance of a report that their VR! had gone non-functional. AND, he said if I would pay the shipping ($12.00 for FedEx) that they would send me a replacement VR1 at no cost other than shipping.

Apparently the VR1 just decided to fritz, and that was what caused the Alternator to set up a harmonic vibration.

Am going to be going to the Post Office and Grocery Store tomorrow morning in Lorrie. Will see how the 7.5 Amp fuse works out.

Will update tomorrow when we get home.

Anyway, your "hooray" is cheer-ful! Smile

Hope you are well.

JC



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Reed
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Post subject: (Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:16 pm) Reply with quote

I'm doing good.

Glad to hear you are getting some good support from the manufacturer of the voltage regulator.

It would be great to se a picture of your former postal van at the post office, making a "delivery"! Keep us posted of how Lorrie does with the new VR.



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JCAllison
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Post subject: (Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:08 pm) Reply with quote

Reed wrote:
I'm doing good.


Hey Reed,
Then just keep doing what you're doing because it seems to be working! Smile

Quote:
Glad to hear you are getting some good support from the manufacturer of the voltage regulator.


FBO Systems seem to really try to keep their customers happy. I didn't ask them for a free replacement. I mean, an Alternator Regulator can fritz at any time with no rhyme or reason. I was going to order another one. It was Don at FBO Systems that said: "If you'll pay the freight, I'll send you a replacement!" I said: "GREAT!".

Quote:
It would be great to see a picture of your former postal van at the post office, making a "delivery"!


I'll take my Sony Mavica along (if I can remember) the next time I go to the Post Office and get you a JPG.

Quote:
Keep us posted of how Lorrie does with the new VR.


Sure. It's exactly like the last one. Am hoping that it just fritzed for no good reason. Am hoping that it isn't anything systemic with Lorrie. It seems to me that if there was something amiss other than the Alternator Regulator, that it would have shown up before it did.

Anyway, it's time for dinner, and then a good night's sleep. Worried all weekend about this, but as of now everything is fine.

Talk with you later.

JC



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