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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2002 7:55 pm 
I'm not sure how close the Desktop Dyno results are to real slant sixes, but some of the results implied building a killer turbo slant six is less difficult than I thought. Does anyone know how well it works with /6's, or have detailed flowbench data for modified slant six heads?

The combo I used starts with a small turbo (not having a turbo map for the Itsibishi turbo from a 2.5 that I've got, I went with a Rajay 300 limited to 8 psi of boost) that'll deliver full boost at very low RPM - around 3,500 in this case. It also had a 30 efficient intercooler. I described the head as a "pocket ported wedge with large valves" using the Mopar Performance valves. Other than that, this engine was described as bone stock with the '71-'77 camshaft. I could refine this even more if I had a turbo map for the Chrysler 2.5's.

I was floored at the results from this seemingly simple setup. The computer predicted nearly 400 lb-ft of torque at 3,500 RPM, and a hair over 300 hp. It sounds like I could merely bolt a ported head and turbo setup onto one of those parts store rebuild short-blocks discussed earlier, get the tuning straighened out, and get ready to waste V8's. Or waste a lot of 7 1/4" axles.

How realistic is this estimate likely to prove?


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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2002 8:13 pm 
(User Above) wrote:
: I'm not sure how close the Desktop Dyno results
: are to real slant sixes, but some of the
: results implied building a killer turbo
: slant six is less difficult than I thought.
: Does anyone know how well it works with
: /6's, or have detailed flowbench data for
: modified slant six heads?
:
: The combo I used starts with a small turbo (not
: having a turbo map for the Itsibishi turbo
: from a 2.5 that I've got, I went with a
: Rajay 300 limited to 8 psi of boost) that'll
: deliver full boost at very low RPM - around
: 3,500 in this case. It also had a 30
: efficient intercooler. I described the head
: as a "pocket ported wedge with large
: valves" using the Mopar Performance
: valves. Other than that, this engine was
: described as bone stock with the '71-'77
: camshaft. I could refine this even more if I
: had a turbo map for the Chrysler 2.5's.
:
: I was floored at the results from this
: seemingly simple setup. The computer
: predicted nearly 400 lb-ft of torque at
: 3,500 RPM, and a hair over 300 hp. It sounds
: like I could merely bolt a ported head and
: turbo setup onto one of those parts store
: rebuild short-blocks discussed earlier, get
: the tuning straighened out, and get ready to
: waste V8's. Or waste a lot of 7 1/4"
: axles.
:
: How realistic is this estimate likely to prove?


It is pretty realistic and you already have the challenges identified:

"get the tuning straighened out, and get ready to waste V8's. Or (and) waste a lot of 7 1/4" axles."

Anyone who has done a turbo SL6 knows the power gained is fantastic.

The thing that will always make this viable is the fact that a SL6 is so darn strong, how much boost do you think you can stuff into one?? How fast do you want to go?? Head gaskets (@15+ lbs of boost), connecting rods (@350+ HP)and that oil pump drive gear are the weak links.
DD


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 Post subject: Thanks!
PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2002 11:27 am 
I hadn't realized how close a turbo setup could get to the limits of breaking something with so little boost and a small turbo. I'd expected it might at least need a better cam. Getting that much power can be a mixed blessing. Looks like my next mod may either be a bottom end rebuild or a stouter rear axle, and hopefully neither one will break before then.


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 Post subject: Re: Thanks!
PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2002 12:21 pm 
If you can swing it, i would reccommend forged pistons. They are a lot more forgiging then cast pistons, if you get into detonation. Cast pistons like to break skirts, and ring lands.

Charrlie_S
(User Above) wrote:
:
: I hadn't realized how close a turbo setup could
: get to the limits of breaking something with
: so little boost and a small turbo. I'd
: expected it might at least need a better
: cam. Getting that much power can be a mixed
: blessing. Looks like my next mod may either
: be a bottom end rebuild or a stouter rear
: axle, and hopefully neither one will break
: before then.



flturbo6@aol.com


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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2002 10:34 am 
(User Above) wrote:
: How realistic is this estimate likely to prove?


Using the formula in a turbo book I have you get the following estimate from 10psi, 225 ci and the lowest efficency turbo example they show(52%).

.052 X 225 X 24.7 = 289hp

Seems realistic to me!
Tom Drake


http://www.drakecoatings.com
drakecoatings@aol.com


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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2002 10:47 am 
(User Above) wrote:
: Using the formula in a turbo book I have you
: get the following estimate from 10psi, 225
: ci and the lowest efficency turbo example
: they show(52%).
:
: .052 X 225 X 24.7 = 289hp

*************************************************
Hey, Tom......does that formula also apply to superchargers?

Roger

GTS225@aol.com


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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2002 4:38 pm 
(User Above) wrote:
:
: *************************************************
: Hey, Tom......does that formula also apply to
: superchargers?
:
: Roger


No the formula refers only to turbo applications. Maybe someone else can shed some light on superchargers. Since they actually rob hp to make more hp the formula would have to reflect this.

Tom Drake

http://www.drakecoatings.com
drakecaotings@aol.com


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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2002 6:45 am 
(User Above) wrote:
: No the formula refers only to turbo
: applications./---/ Since they actually rob hp
: to make more hp the formula would have to
: reflect this.

************************************************** Thanks, Tom. I should have thought of that, but also didn't know whether your book also covered supers or not.

Roger


GTS225@aol.com


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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2002 11:37 am 
What I'm curious about is the comparison of the torque/horsepower curve across the rpm band for both forced induction methods. Daily drivers look for results at the mid to lower end and therefore might lean towards SC, others are looking for results at WOT where turbos should perform better. I think that intended usage probably dicates avenue chosen.


ahtoews@shaw.ca


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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2002 11:39 am 
(User Above) wrote:
: No the formula refers only to turbo
: applications. Maybe someone else can shed
: some light on superchargers. Since they
: actually rob hp to make more hp the formula
: would have to reflect this.


I ran across an old study from the '30s by the federal government (by the predecessor of NASA) that showed there was no differance between exhaust driven versus belt driven superchargers when producing increased power with aircraft engines.

I would say the same applies to auto engines. A belt driven supercharger robs energy by the effort needed to turn the compressor with the crank. A turbocharger robs energy with the increased back pressure in the exhaust manifolds, which is needed to turn the compressor.

There is no free lunch with either setup.


klesteb@aol.com


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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2002 12:49 pm 
(User Above) wrote:
: I ran across an old study from the '30s by the
: federal government (by the predecessor of
: NASA) that showed there was no differance
: between exhaust driven versus belt driven
: superchargers when producing increased power
: with aircraft engines.


You believe something put out by the federal government? You probaly expect to collect Social Security too. :-(
:
: I would say the same applies to auto engines. A
: belt driven supercharger robs energy by the
: effort needed to turn the compressor with
: the crank. A turbocharger robs energy with
: the increased back pressure in the exhaust
: manifolds, which is needed to turn the
: compressor.

A turbocharger adds some back pressure, but uses heat energy from the exhaust gas, which a supercharger completely wastes. At high boost, during valve overlap, a supercharger can pump mixture through the head, and out the exhaust. The turbocharger "backpressure" reduces this tendency.

A centrifugal compressor in a turbocharger or some superchargers is more efficient then the Roots compressors traditionally used for superchargers.

The drag race pros use superchargers, but turbos dominate in F1, Indy, endurance racing, and most other forms of racing where they are allowed. I think this is because drag racers are only concerned about max power and do it as simply as possible. The big sledge approach. Other racers are more concerned with fuel economy and longevity.


dwordinger@earthlink.net


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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2002 2:59 pm 
(User Above) wrote:
: The drag race pros use superchargers, but
: turbos dominate in F1, Indy, endurance
: racing, and most other forms of racing where
: they are allowed. I think this is because
: drag racers are only concerned about max
: power and do it as simply as possible. The
: big sledge approach. Other racers are more
: concerned with fuel economy and longevity.


Actually, there's a simpler reason why many pro drag racers use superchargers. The powers that be have banned turbos from many drag racing classes, and only allow Roots style blowers. And in some cases where they do allow turbos, they hit them with weight or displacement penalties compared to superchargers. Sometimes that still doesn't stop them from being competative, though.


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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2002 9:16 am 
(User Above) wrote:
: Actually, there's a simpler reason why many pro
: drag racers use superchargers. The powers
: that be have banned turbos from many drag
: racing classes, and only allow Roots style
: blowers. And in some cases where they do
: allow turbos, they hit them with weight or
: displacement penalties compared to
: superchargers. Sometimes that still doesn't
: stop them from being competative, though.


And why did they ban turbochargers??? Just look at Buddy Ingersol in pro stock years ago. Had a turbo set-up, was more represenative of modern stock technology and out ran the **** out of the competition. They quickly banned turbos because no one would have stood a chance against him.

Tom Drake

http://www.drakecoatings.com
drakecoatings@aol.com


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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2002 12:04 pm 
(User Above) wrote:
: What I'm curious about is the comparison of the
: torque/horsepower curve across the rpm band
: for both forced induction methods. Daily
: drivers look for results at the mid to lower
: end and therefore might lean towards SC,
: others are looking for results at WOT where
: turbos should perform better. I think that
: intended usage probably dicates avenue
: chosen.


For a daily driver, I would go with a Turbo setup, and try to keep the spool as high as I could... say around 3500. That way, if it is computer controlled, I could (theoretically, of course) keep my foot off the gas enough to keep fuel consumption low. When I wanted to go fast... Rev her on up to 3500. =D

SC'ing power-bands will depend mostly on what kind of SC it is. A Roots-Type blower will have a f'in flat band, just power all the way. A Compressor on the other hand will act more like a Turbo, wherein you have to get it up to a certain speed to attain any kind of usable power.

=D


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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2002 7:52 pm 
(User Above) wrote:
: For a daily driver, I would go with a Turbo
: setup, and try to keep the spool as high as
: I could... say around 3500.


That's not quite how a turbo works. Boost isn't stritcly a function of RPM, but a combination of RPM and engine load. Drive with a feather foot, and you'll get decent mileage no matter where it spools when you floor it.

If you want to get really creative, Donovan's Dodge Garage has recipes for a boost control that only allows maximum boost at wide open throttle.


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