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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 6:38 pm 
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TBI Slant 6

Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:03 am
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Ok, so this is a weird issue that I'm pretty sure is electrical, but figured it might make sense to float it here.

Basically, I'm having issues with startup, and I'm not sure if it has something to do with the lock cylinder (i.e. where I put the key), maybe the transmission, or what.

So when I turn the key clockwise, the Oil light comes on, all electric goes on (as is normal), and then it either turns the engine (a fine, quick, easy start), or does absolutely nothing.

It's the second event that I'm concerned about, obviously, as at this point I'm pulling out the key, putting it back in, waiting a second, etc... in hopes that I can get the engine to turn. It doesn't even sound like it's making the attempt.

Meanwhile, I also take the car out of park, put it in neutral, etc.

There's no science to this, but after fiddling for between 5 and 60 seconds, the car starts. The start is as clean as ever, and the car runs perfectly.

Anyone have this before?

I should note that it appears that the neutral safety switch wire is disconnected, and has been for some time (I know this because a month ago or so I accidentally started the car in drive!!). I assume that the wire coming from the transmission is for this switch. It is currently hanging free.

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63 Plymouth Valiant V200 Convertible.
225, HEI, Super Six with 38/38 Weber, Electric Fans, Scarebird discs, FirmFeel front swaybar.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:04 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2002 5:39 pm
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Location: North America
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If the neutral safety switch has been disconnected, that means your starter relay's has been hack-grounded. I'd look there first. One of its two small (spade, push-on) terminals gets +12v when you turn the key. The other one is grounded—normally via the neutral safety switch. If someone made a dodgy ground connection after the neutral switch failed, that could easily cause your intermittent-start issue.

The second word in "neutral safety switch" is for real. Nobody means to start the car in gear, but it happens, and then badness. Best fix that. If you need a new NSS, prepare for hunt-and-spend; the '60-'64 switch has grown difficult to get hold of. I have one new in box on my shelf; send a PM if you need it.

Beyond that, basic diagnosis is just working backwards along the circuit to find the failure: Next time it won't crank, go under the hood with a screwdriver and bridge the two terminals on the starter. Does it crank? The starter's not the problem. Go to the starter relay and bridge its two big terminals. Does it crank? The wiring from the relay to the starter's not the problem. Feed +12v to one small terminal on the relay and ground the other (make up some test wires for this in advance. 1/4" female spade terminal on one end, crocodile clip or just long stripped and twisted bare wire on the other). Does it crank? The relay's not the problem. Leave your new small-terminal ground in place and connect the car's original +wire in place of your test +wire and turn the key. Does it crank? If so, the relay trigger ground is the problem. If not, the problem is in the ignition switch or the wiring from the ignition switch to the starter relay (including the bulkhead disconnect).

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 Post subject: Thanks!
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 5:05 pm 
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TBI Slant 6

Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:03 am
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Wow. Solid answer, SSD. I'll get to it this weekend. Thanks much for the instructions!

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63 Plymouth Valiant V200 Convertible.

225, HEI, Super Six with 38/38 Weber, Electric Fans, Scarebird discs, FirmFeel front swaybar.


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 Post subject: The Picture
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 5:53 pm 
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TBI Slant 6

Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:03 am
Posts: 194
Car Model:
Here's a picture of the starter and the relay.

Image

So the yellow wire goes to the bulkhead, the black wire goes straight to the solenoid, and the red wire basically joins with another wire and connects to the giant stud on the relay, and the other side of it goes to the starter.

Where should the Neutral Safety Switch wire go?

[/img]

_________________
63 Plymouth Valiant V200 Convertible.

225, HEI, Super Six with 38/38 Weber, Electric Fans, Scarebird discs, FirmFeel front swaybar.


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 Post subject: Re: The Picture
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 11:32 pm 
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63valconvert wrote:
Here's a picture of the starter and the relay.


Uhhhh...that's interesting. You've got a Canadian-spec starter with its solenoid perched on top (which means a Canadian-spec transmission, or at least torque converter), but you've got an American-spec starter relay that was not present on Canadian cars (the solenoid serves that purpose).

So someone's been bull-in-a-china-shopping your car's electrical system. Is yours a Canadian '63 Valiant, or an American one?

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Too many people who were born on third base actually believe they've hit a triple.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 9:56 am 
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TBI Slant 6

Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:03 am
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Ha! Well, it's an American Built 63, but its history is probably 90% Canadian.

Er, and now it lives in America. Funny stuff.

_________________
63 Plymouth Valiant V200 Convertible.

225, HEI, Super Six with 38/38 Weber, Electric Fans, Scarebird discs, FirmFeel front swaybar.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 10:00 am 
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Supercharged
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Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2002 9:20 pm
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Location: Fircrest, WA
Car Model: 76 D100
Things that make you go, "Eh?" :lol:


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 Post subject: Wiring diagram
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 10:01 am 
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EFI Slant 6
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Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2007 7:20 am
Posts: 290
Location: Portland, Or.
Car Model: '64 Valiant Convertible
Image
From my '63 Service Manual

Looking at your picture, S-2 is the yellow wire from the keyswitch. Electrons should flow from A-1 through S-5 to the starter solenoid only when the keyswitch is turned, and only if S-4 is grounded through the neutral safety switch.

I can't see from your picture where the S-4 post is on the relay, and what (if anything) is attached to it. With an assistant turning the keyswitch, while a grounded test light is held to wire S-2, you can verify the consistent function of electron flow through the keyswitch to the starter relay.

With an assistant pushing buttons between neutral and D & R, and a hot (12V) test light to S-4, you can test functionality of the neutral safety switch.

I hope this helps.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 11:32 am 
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63valconvert wrote:
Ha! Well, it's an American Built 63, but its history is probably 90% Canadian. Er, and now it lives in America. Funny stuff.


Okeh, most likely explanation is that someone swapped in a Canadian engine and transmission assembly at some point. A little difficult to tell from your pic, but it looks like the solenoid on the starter has only one small terminal. That's a manual-trans solenoid; the auto-trans units have two small terminals. There's nothing the matter with having the American starter relay (on the firewall) in the system, it just adds one more component and several more wires to potentially fail. Note that your starter relay is also a manual-transmission item with only one small terminal -- to the left of that small terminal, the angled one at the top-right corner of the relay, you see a triangular piece of metal riveted to the face of the relay. That's the ground connection for the relay's trigger coil. On an automatic-trans type relay, that piece of metal would not be present; instead there'd be another small terminal, and to that small terminal you would hook the wire that goes to the neutral safety switch.

Since this car has an automatic transmission, you should install an auto-trans type relay — this one. That will be the easiest and least complicated way of sorting out this wiring hodgepodge. Connect it as your present relay is connected, but now you'll connect the neutral safety switch to the new relay's 2nd small terminal.

Test your Neutral Safety Switch by making sure a good, intact wire is attached to it and putting a continuity meter across the other end of that wire and ground (such as battery negative). You should see continuity when the car is in Neutral, and no continuity (open) when the car is in any other gear. If that is not the case, replace the neutral safety switch (I still have one).

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Too many people who were born on third base actually believe they've hit a triple.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 3:01 pm 
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TBI Slant 6

Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:03 am
Posts: 194
Car Model:
Wow. That's some weird, but I can't say I'm shocked. I've only owned this car since the '90s.

I ordered the switch. I'm wondering if it was unhooked (and the relay changed out) precisely because it wasn't functioning anymore. I guess I'm about to find out. I will PM you if I need the switch.

Thanks again for all the help. These 50+ year old cars can be a little janky. ;)

_________________
63 Plymouth Valiant V200 Convertible.

225, HEI, Super Six with 38/38 Weber, Electric Fans, Scarebird discs, FirmFeel front swaybar.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 11:02 am 
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63valconvert wrote:
I ordered the switch.


What switch, from where?

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一期一会
Too many people who were born on third base actually believe they've hit a triple.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 1:06 pm 
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TBI Slant 6

Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:03 am
Posts: 194
Car Model:
Sorry. Relay. I installed it, tried it with the Neutral Safety Switch engaged, and nothing. Then, I just grounded a wire, connected the other side to the "G" on the relay, and it starts pretty easy.

My multimeter is bizarrely broken, so I've ordered a new one to at least be able to do a continuity check on the switch. I should get that tomorrow.

But, I will likely PM you about that replacement Neutral Safety Switch, SSD, as I'm about 95% sure the switch is dead. Which partly explains the Manual trans-starter relay installation, of course why you would do that makes little sense.

But then, I'm guessing the "Previous Owner Blues" is probably a pretty familiar tune around here. :D

_________________
63 Plymouth Valiant V200 Convertible.

225, HEI, Super Six with 38/38 Weber, Electric Fans, Scarebird discs, FirmFeel front swaybar.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:35 pm 
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1 BBL (New)

Joined: Tue May 09, 2017 7:34 am
Posts: 1
Location: Turlock, CA
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This exactly why I love this forum. A 1 year old Post found through the search helped me get my 50 year old van back on the road without me having to throw a bunch of unneeded parts at it. Thank you to everyone who reads this for your clear questions, your in depth answers, and the polite, helpful and earnest follow up that takes place here every day.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:24 am 
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EFI Slant 6
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Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2003 4:51 pm
Posts: 452
Car Model:
apedave wrote:
This exactly why I love this forum. A 1 year old Post found through the search helped me get my 50 year old van back on the road without me having to throw a bunch of unneeded parts at it. Thank you to everyone who reads this for your clear questions, your in depth answers, and the polite, helpful and earnest follow up that takes place here every day.

No, thank you for doing some homework and finding this topic to help fix your problem. [/img]


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