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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:29 am 
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Supercharged
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Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:00 pm
Posts: 2798
Location: kankakee IL
Car Model: 80 volare, 78 fury 2 dr, 85 D150
WARNING LONG POST but please bear with me/it, I wanted to make sure I included all pertinent info related to what I'm trying to do.

I'm a ways off, but thinking about how I want to build up this engine that I have in the garage for my truck.... want to start accumulating parts as they come available for a good price..... rather than rushing to buy all at once and having to pay retail....
No hurry on this build at this point, current original engine in truck still runs. not (yet anyway) my daily driver, I plan on it being so, during 3 non salt seasons once done... truck is 85 D150, long bed 4800 GVW. 727, (which will stay-- it is a truck) 3.2 rear gears, no AC.
I have searched here for cam threads, my head is spinning.... lots about cams in cars lighter than this truck, many of them race oriented. will probably use to pull my popup camper and carry other camping gear during that season when I get it road worthy. occasionaly a utility trailer with a garden tractor with 42" tiller on the back.... MPG isn't foremost concern (hey its a truck) but if I could get the 22 hwy (empty) that I got on my old '79 (was completely stock, though it did have a 3 on the tree, manual ) I'd be real happy.... I want the best I can get, "for what it is".....if that makes sense.
I admit, I still don't always drive the best for mileage, either. I'd like to think, I do better now than back then, though..... That '79 truck also had 3.55s, which became 3.91s when I went to V8/A833OD

engine I have for build is a '74 225 cu in, "BH" block, I also have at present 3 heads to pick from. Early in build, have a few ideas on how to proceed with this.
have been looking on Ebay at what cams they have available, I want to keep it solid lifter. You guys talk alot about Oregon cams, I tried to look them up, absolutely nothing I saw on their site about any of their specific available grinds. guess I'll have to call....
I have the original cam from the 74 engine here to potentially use as a core, havent really looked at it close yet for condition/feasibility.
I have a Super 6 stack here at present, was looking at using that, at least initially.
Im also contemplating the idea of a mild turbo, "just because" and want to build this engine so it could go "either way" without pulling it and swapping cams again, or heads, etc.
As far as the engine itself goes, I don't want to bore it just to brag about how much over it is, just want to bore it as needed for cleanup, if itll clean up at 30, that's all I want to go. If it takes 40 or 60 to accomplish that, then oh well, that's where it will land.
I plan to shave the block to bring the deck closer to where the piston is at TDC. reading what I have on here, for the age of the block, Im thinking 0.060-0.080. and cut the head the rest, I'm wanting ~8-1/2-9:1, no higher. Its funny how every manual I have ever seen, (Chilton's. Motor, Haynes, Mitchell, etc) seems to claim that "every" 225 left the factory at 8.4:1, but by all that I read on here, it seems that none of them did. would like to get it at least to there.
I have 3 heads here to pick from, 1 drool tube and 2 peanut style without the extra "emissions" holes. thinking at this point to use peanut head but not sure... want to port to a point of cleaning up the flash and fluff, at least. I was thinking about some O/S valves, I wish the Engine buildr ones were still available. will probably wind up with stock size ones in the end, though.

on the cam... that "818" or "819" Oregon grind sound like either would work, from what I see here/
do they re-harden them once they grind them? The last one I bought for a 360, came "tuftride coated"
I saw several possibilities while browsing Ebay--- Elgin, (those look like mostly the same as stock) COMP (I don't hear much good about them on here) and another old school brand that seemed to perk my interest.... Howard cams, there were 2 on Ebay that caught my interest, both seem on the mild side....
I have always tended to chicken out and go to the smaller of cams that I am considering but I have only replaced a cam with something besides stock, on V8s, in the past. While I have "overhauled" slants in the past I have never "built one up" beyond stock with necessary machine work to restore clearances before, this will be my 1st "build up". of a slant.
I was thinking about the Howard with 249* duration and ~.440" lift.... that is the smaller of the 2 Howards that I saw listed though the "bigger" one didn't seem crazy either. I dont remember duration off the top of my head, but I think lift was something like .460-ish.... (wife stole my notebook for the moment) Both Howards ones said good for RV, towing, etc in the description.....

I considered a V8 swap, have been down that road before but there were less of these trucks made this way than with a V8, Id like to get at least "stock 360" power of the era that this truck was built/ but that was kinda dismal "for a 360" now, wasn't it? While a /6 truck was always looked at as an "old man's truck" I'm not 22 no more....like I was when I had that 79, that wound up getting 318'd.... maybe adding 30 years to that has something to do with my thinking? Id like this "old man's truck" to "surprise" people..... and get out of it's own way.
I'm hoping that the money I save by not having to buy V8 mounts, a V8 trans, a V8 radiator, etc will be better spent making the slant a better engine than it already is. I got this engine I have in pieces, did not get pistons or rods with it... would like at least a couple of std ones for measuring/ "moc up" before the trip to the machine shop.... I have talked to a couple of guys about some NOS rods they have from back in the day, for the actual build.... just because I currently have none.
Thoughts? suggestions?


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 3:18 pm 
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Car Model: 65 Valiant 2Dr Post
Oregon cams are listed in the FAQ of the engine tab. Plenty to choose from. I run the 819 in my truck. But you aren't going to get 22 mpg in a 4800# brick without overdrive. And maybe no even then

My truck weighs about 3550# and hit 22 mpg, on all highway driving, on the way back from Bristol to PA. I had 2.76 gears in it, which made it like overdrive, and also made it an extremely slow truck from take off. 3.55's are sweet in it, which is what I normally run locally, but I ain't getting 22 mpg with 3.55's either.

Good luck

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 5:46 pm 
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Supercharged
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Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:00 pm
Posts: 2798
Location: kankakee IL
Car Model: 80 volare, 78 fury 2 dr, 85 D150
Rick Covalt wrote:
Oregon cams are listed in the FAQ of the engine tab. Plenty to choose from. I run the 819 in my truck. But you aren't going to get 22 mpg in a 4800# brick without overdrive. And maybe no even then

My truck weighs about 3550# and hit 22 mpg, on all highway driving, on the way back from Bristol to PA. I had 2.76 gears in it, which made it like overdrive, and also made it an extremely slow truck from take off. 3.55's are sweet in it, which is what I normally run locally, but I ain't getting 22 mpg with 3.55's either.

Good luck


like I had said// I would LIKE TO/ "it would be nice" but it isnt the end all/ be all goal of this build....
when I got that number out of my old 79 D100 shortbed.... mind you it was manual steering, manual brakes, and 3-on-the-tree it was a 250-ish mile round trip 100% highway run with only a few overnight bags in the bed.... I dont remember if that was while I had a cap on it or not. but in my daily drive at the time which was mostly in-town, work was less than 10 miles from home sort of thing, it still seemed to do quite well in that department "for a truck".

While I want it to be able to get out of its own way, I want "the best I can get out of it FOR WHAT IT IS". and that includes keeping the current trans and rear gearing.

Ill check out that tab you mention.... what I said above was going straight to the Oregon Cams website, not via this one. Of what I had been seeing (my head is spinning) from looking thru threads I found on a search here for "cam suggestion" but I didn't come up with much during that search that seemed to match my combo of a long bed truck and its "given" trans and rear gearing. I will say.... tires will probably be 235/75-15 maybe 275/60 eventually.... with 225/70 or 235/70 up front, time will tell on that thought.... but overall diameter "somewhere around there".


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 5:59 pm 
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Board Sponsor & SL6 Racer

Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2002 7:57 pm
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Location: Waynesboro, Pa.
Car Model: 65 Valiant 2Dr Post
Yes Oregon's web site doesn't have the cams grinds listed. We have gotten them from them and posted them in our FAQ section.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 6:23 pm 
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Turbo EFI
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Location: Rome, GA
Car Model: 1963 Dart 270, 1980 D150
http://www.oregoncamshaft.com/cam-specs.html

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 6:44 pm 
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Supercharged
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Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:00 pm
Posts: 2798
Location: kankakee IL
Car Model: 80 volare, 78 fury 2 dr, 85 D150
ok I found the Oregon specs, my head is again spinning.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:28 am 
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Supercharged

Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 6:48 pm
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Location: Indianapolis
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Quote:
Im also contemplating the idea of a mild turbo, "just because" and want to build this engine so it could go "either way" without pulling it and swapping cams again, or heads, etc.


recommend that you think that one through.
If you rebuild the motor really close to stock for compression and cam selection, you could add a turbo later and get some improved performance.
If you rebuild the motor as a improved performance NA motor then add a turbo later, depending upon where you set the cylinder compression and cam LSA you may have problems


Quote:
will probably use to pull my popup camper and carry other camping gear during that season when I get it road worthy. occasionaly a utility trailer


it sounds like you are wanting a good street performer, more interested in low RPM torque, no real need to push the RPM's above 4000

for a NA engine, slants ( race and street) like a LSA of 105 to 108, for duration, and this is for your low RPM torque motor, 206 to 218 at .050 that will be an improvement over stock, race motors will have much more duration. For lift, stay somewhere around the stock numbers, that will allow you to use 318 valve springs. Set the static compression at 8.5 to 1 and you will be able to run regular gas in any situation.

for a Turbo motor, I would go with a wider LSA of 110 to 113, the duration mentioned above will work, but you really need to be on top of the compression, The static may be lower than the NA engine. Regardless you will likely be in a premium gas situation, and with a heavy vehicle water injection. For lift I would go with the most exhaust lift I could find and a comparable intake lift, this will require upgraded valve springs and more spring pressure.

For the cylinder head, I would stay with the stock valve size, use the money saved from not buying OS valves and clean up the valve bowls and get real performance multi angle seats cut in.
You can have it all hot tanked ( include the rocker arms and rocker shaft with the end plugs out). And do the block and head valve machining, do not cut the head combustion face, have a .010 clean up cut done on the top deck of the block. When it is ready install a piston and get the new piston recession number. Install valves and get the head combustion chamber cc value.
Then using the actual piston recession, the combustion chamber size with the valves you plan to use calculate what needs to be cut off the head to get to your target static compression ratio.

If you do choose to go with OS valves, Hughes Engines has drop in OS slant valves. But again, unless you are wanting to push the RPM envelope, the stock valve size will have better velocity and mixing at low RPM. Or for what you are doing, just go OS on the exhaust valve. Either way, get performance seat angles put in, at low lift it is the seat angles / profile that gets the flow.

Good Luck on your project

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2020 9:28 am 
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Board Sponsor & SL6 Racer

Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2002 7:57 pm
Posts: 8284
Location: Waynesboro, Pa.
Car Model: 65 Valiant 2Dr Post
Quote:
Or for what you are doing, just go OS on the exhaust valve


Did you mean intake? The exhaust side of our slant 6 heads flows better than the intake proportionally, correct?

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2 Mopars come with Spark plug tubes. One is a world class, racing machine. The other is a 426 CI. boat anchor!
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2020 9:40 am 
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Turbo Slant 6

Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:29 pm
Posts: 737
Location: Houston
Car Model: 68 Valiant
I agree, you won't see 22MPG...unless you find a really good hill.

The best MPG I ever saw with a Slant Six car was in my white 68 Valiant 100 that had a 170 and a 4 speed OD and 3.23 gears. I could get a measured 30MPG but more often would get 29MPG.

I should add that those numbers were back around 1991 when the gas pumps sold gasoline which has a higher BTU content than the liquid they sell you now.

The good news is.......as Andrew Dice clay used to say, "what's the f*ckin' difference?" if it gets 15 or 17 or 20MPG? Sit down with a pen and paper and you'll see that it hardly matters to your wallet.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2020 11:24 am 
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Supercharged

Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 6:48 pm
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Location: Indianapolis
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Quote:
Did you mean intake?


meant exhaust, on a low rpm motor, the thought was to stay at a stock sized intake valve to keep velocity up at the valve seat to keep good fuel / air mixing.
An OS intake would be helpful if he was wanting to push the rpm envelope. From volaredon's vehicle usage description that did not appear to be the case
The thought is to increase the exhaust valve size to minimize exhaust pumping losses (backpressure) when using a relatively short duration cam. Although that was mentioned as an option,
I believe for this project he would be fine with stock valves. And to clarify further, that would be with the low rpm NA motor. If definitely want's to do turbo the OS Intake and Exhaust valves should go up on the priority list. As, why waste boost with backpressure.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2020 4:52 pm 
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Location: Park Forest, Illinoisy
Car Model: 68 Valiant
Remember, 4800 is the GROSS vehicle weight, not what it weighs to start with.

20 mpg is going to be a tough nut to crack with a 727.

I'd use a peanut head just because I like them.

Only issue I have ever had with a Comp cam was a used one put in a buddy's motor. Against my advice he used an MP High volume pump. It killed the drive gear on the cam. As far as what grind to use, all I can say is stay small.

For exhaust I'd clean up a stock manifold really well and use a 2" exhaust. If you go bigger on a stockish motor the exhaust cools off before it gets out of the muffler and defeats the purpose.

Curving the distributor will help as much as anything.

If you need any short block parts I have a couple laying around the shop yet.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2020 7:23 pm 
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Supercharged
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Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:00 pm
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Location: kankakee IL
Car Model: 80 volare, 78 fury 2 dr, 85 D150
yup... I know about "gross" weight, I'm guessing off the cuff that this thing would be ~3750-ish lb, as it sits now/ might hafta hit the scale at one of the local farm/fertilizer places.... I know a couple places around here like that I could go.....

as I had said, MPG is NOT the "main" goal here..... just that "it would be nice".... again, I'd like "the best I can get, for what it is".... a brick. I know a lot of that is in jetting, timing advance curve, etc.....

I was thinking peanut head, just because I have 2 of them here but I do have 1 drool tube head....I have 1 fully dressed and 1 bare peanut head. both used.

for some reason, the Howards cam I found on Fee bay/ Howard's PN 751082-12 kind of interests me... or getting the core cam that came with this engine ground to something close, if the existing lobes would "take" it.... there was another Howards cam that seemed a little too big to me.... I am 98% sure that I will keep it mechanical/solid lifter this build is NOT being done on the original cast crank, hydro motor.

I was thinking also, that while I know that whatever pistons I go with, may vary from stock positioning below deck as was, with the original pistons// but that if I could find me a std piston and rod (or 2) and stab into this block, run them up to TDC, I could get a pretty good idea of how much of the block to shave, so that I wouldn't have to pay twice for block machining..... once for that 0.010 "cleanup" cut, and again for the final shave.... being as how any HG I may find will be thicker than the OE one, I'm thinking the difference between stock/OE and the replacement thickness, would be the least I'd want shaved.... just to put me back to whatever CR, that this engine originally had...…whether "as advertised", or not.

Forget about duration, overlap, etc "just for a minute", I know it's important to consider.....but don't matter for this question., at what lift would I have to shave the tops of the valve guide castings, to prevent a collision of the retainers?

as far as my thoughts of a possible mild turbo addition.... doesn't sound like it would be feasible to do so, unless the engine was "built for it" from the start.... and then it would be far from ideal, if I ran it N/A for a while....

not looking to bracket race.... but as I remember, a slant from 1985 was less than 100hp, as was factory built.... a 318 was ~140-150-ish.... I'd like to at least double the factory slant rating..... my 3.9 in my 99 Dakota is supposed to have roughly double the HP of this slant, as it came from the factory.... but I think that mine was a Monday Morning build, and isn't up to its supposed rating, but "it's a dog", though it definitely "runs good".

I know that being a slant is an inline/ as opposed to the 3.9 being a "v" type engine/ inlines have inherently more torque...... the difference between 3.7 and 3.9, in and of itself, is minimal.... but like I said, I want this '85 with a slant, to be able to get out of its own way...... and my thoughts of doing it with a turbo because "it's different" from most of what I see around here.... most still yank a "puny 6" and go V8. that's Ford, Dodge or Chevy.
This truck probably will never be my #1 daily driver..... but would like to be able to drive it at least 1/2 the time, when the weather is decent and there is no snow/ salt on the ground....

Dadtruck… I saw your truck, I like your truck, I know that your truck is a shortbed (lighter than mine) and a stick w/ OD (more effcient than an A/T) but when you say you can pull your race car and trailer with that truck, and when I met you at the ICH swap last month, we followed you to that eatin place with "not much weight" in the bed and no trailer, it seemed like it could "move" out of its own way pretty well.... While I don't see myself trying to pull a loaded car trailer, the 2 trailers that I would potentially pull with this truck (not at the same time, d'uh, haha) might weigh 1/2 what yours does "at the most", I'd like it not to struggle in the process, without resorting to a V8.....
I will say that your truck had a different "sound" to it than any other slant I remember sounding back in the day.....which is how the original one in the truck, and the one in my kid's '80 both sound.... a slant always had a distinct sound to it.


and thanks guys for your input.... it is appreciated.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2020 7:28 am 
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Supercharged

Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 6:48 pm
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Location: Indianapolis
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Quote:
so that I wouldn't have to pay twice for block machining..... once for that 0.010 "cleanup" cut, and again for the final shave.


and you don't want to pay twice for block decking,, I had mentioned in my earlier post to:
1) get all of the hot tank work done
2) do what ever block work that you want done, including a clean up cut on the block, just to give you a nice clean sealing surface for the head gasket
3) Install the crank and a one of the pistons that you will use and on the rod that you will use to get the final piston recession number
4) have the valve work done on the head, using the valves that you plan to use cc the head and get the head combustion chamber volume
5) using an on line calculator and using the actual piston recession value and the combustion chamber volume, calculate out what you will need to have trimmed on the head
to get to your target static compression ratio.

The block and head deck surfaces are only cut once. And I would use the pistons that you plan to run in the actual block to get the piston recession number. Some after market over sized stock style pistons have a reduced compression ratio to make up for the additional volume gained with the larger OD. Crazy but true.

The engine in the 83 D150 is .030 over stock style Silvolite pistons, 8.5 static compression ratio, Holley 2280 2 bbl with water heat to the carb base and cold air induction, dual Dutras with 31 inch long extensions on them prior to joining in a Y, HEI ignition,
The cam is Oregon hydraulic 1333 intake on the intake side and Oregon Hydraulic 1527 intake on the exhaust side
212 Intake at .050
206 Exhaust at .050
.447 Intake lift at the valve
.432 Exhaust lift at the valve
on a 105 Lobe Separation Angle

a hydraulic cam similar to the mechanical Oregon 819 cam mentioned earlier
the 819 is
212 and 212 at .050
.448 lift at the valves

I had the D150 on a chassis dyno, a chart is shown below
133.7 HP at the wheel at 4000 RPM
210.2 Torque at the wheel at 2600 RPM

when accelerating you can feel the torque come on about 2200 rpm and the curve is fairly flat from 2500 to 2800 RPM that puts the good part of the torque curve
right in the range of highway driving RPM's I have 3:73 rear gears.

For the exhaust tone, I was particular on the exhaust routing, it exits on the side of the truck in front of the rear wheel.

I have had the D150 on the scale at the local metal recycle yard,, it weighs 4100 lb with 9 gallons of gas in the tank and without me in it.

Note: I had previously written 3700 lb as the weight in this posting, this morning, I went into the garage and pulled the note book where I write these things down and in June of 2018 I had recorded 4100 LB as the weight.


Attachments:
File comment: Exhaust routing
D150 exhaust.jpg
D150 exhaust.jpg [ 106.96 KiB | Viewed 6393 times ]
File comment: Chassis Dyno, power at the rear wheels
D150 Dyno Chart.jpg
D150 Dyno Chart.jpg [ 92.21 KiB | Viewed 6393 times ]

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2020 7:39 pm 
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Supercharged
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Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:00 pm
Posts: 2798
Location: kankakee IL
Car Model: 80 volare, 78 fury 2 dr, 85 D150
~134HP (I rounded it off) at the wheels, what would you guess at the flywheel? 180? 200?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:24 pm 
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Location: Park Forest, Illinoisy
Car Model: 68 Valiant
165ish. Drivetrain eats 15-18%.

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