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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2022 9:21 pm 
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Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 4:08 pm
Posts: 50
Location: Orangevale, California
Car Model: 1964 Dodge Dart GT - 2 door hardtop - 225 Slant 6
Hello everyone,

it has been literally years since my last post here. In that time I've managed to completely re-wire my '64 Dart engine bay and most of the under dash wiring. The 225 slanter is happily running with a Nippon Denso 80 amp alternator, high torque mini starter, GM HEI ignition, a custom built fuse and relay PDM for the engine bay, and a brand new Weber 38 Outlaw DGES 2-barrel carb.

It was running great until I discovered the original 1964 radiator was leaking. I weighed my options and considered that I had $200 in cash back rewards with one of my credit cards and decided to order a nice new shiny Champion Radiator. It dropped right in and after a bit of creative re-plumbing of the automatic transmission cooler lines I had the engine running again...

...Until the water pump direct drive cooling fan started shaving aluminum off the bottom tank of the radiator because the radiator grew just enough from warming to engine operating temperature.

So! I am now trying to figure out what I can do about the cooling fan situation.

For reference, this is the radiator I purchased:
https://www.championradiators.com/Dodge ... -1963-1964
It is specific to my car/application, all the hoses connected right up and it used the original mounting points.

Now, I've done a fair amount of google searching and spent part of my afternoon using the search function on this forum (*gasp*) and I saw some ideas but I also didn't feel that there was enough information to go on specific to my application.

I did find a post over on For A bodies only where someone basically had the same issue I'm having and the people there were suggesting that the OP get a later 5, 6, or 7 bladed direct drive fan from something like an Aspen/Volare, but what didn't make sense to me about those was that those fans are supposedly 17-18" in diameter, the factory 4-blade fan on my car is ~16" diameter. So I personally don't see how a larger diameter fan is going to stop the fan from eating the radiator. For what it's worth though, that post was also applicable to a car that did not have power steering. My car has power steering and I want to keep it.

Inspecting the factory fan and spacer setup and looking at how much room I have to "play with" I figured that if I could 'shave' 1/8 to 1/4in off the thickness of the spacer, the fan should clear the radiator and also still clear the various pulleys and belts on the engine. The factory spacer is ~7/8in thick, so I would want a spacer in the 5/8 to 3/4 thick range. However, those are not sizes that are readily available and I don't have access to a lathe to shave down my spacer. But, I could get a 'universal' 1/2in thick spacer and a pack of water pump pulley shims (they come in packs of 2x 1/16in thick + 1x 1/8in thick) and using the spacer plus a 1/8in shim I should end up with a 5/8in thick spacer. However, that means I'm probably only at about 3/8" clearance from the fan to the radiator core, and the recommendations I've read are to have at least a 3/4in gap fan to rad core.

I considered an electric fan setup using a single 16" puller fan BUT when I measured the distance from the top of the bolt heads on the water pump pulley (fan and spacer removed) to the radiator core I got a gap of only around 1-5/8". The slimmest 16" electric fan I have found is still 2.05" thick, so that won't work.

I also considered a 16" pusher fan mounted to the front BUT there is a hood latch support bracket in the way of that.

Now, I did find a suggestion on this forum wherein someone threw out the idea of trying to mount 2x 10" fans. Issue with that is that they won't fit. I modeled the core area of my radiator (Nominally 16" tall by 18" wide) and two 10in fans won't fit. You can get various combinations of other fans to fit though, like a 10in and an 8in. Or 4x 6in or 4x 7in fans. But that's starting to get into territories of cooling efficiency that I don't know enough about or have enough experience with.

SO! That's why I'm turning to the folks here for ideas, solutions and/or knowledge on this subject.

My engine is not pumping out big power. It's a factory camshaft, crank, pistons, conrods. The only 'power adders' would be the super-six intake, the Weber 2 bbl carb, and maybe the GM HEI setup. Point being, this engine shouldn't be getting noticeably hotter than a standard 225 slanter. That being said, I do live in California and it's not uncommon for our summers to get into triple digits. I'm also aware that aluminum radiators "tend" to be more efficient than copper/brass models, and this champion unit has a thicker core than the original radiator did. How much of a difference though, again, I don't have the knowledge or experience to say.

So, over to you fine folks. Any help or knowledge is appreciated.

NOTE: I want to make this aluminum radiator work, so please refrain from suggestions of "just fix your original radiator and use that" or "you should buy this other radiator instead", I've already invest money into this radiator so I want to use it.

_________________
1964 Dart GT
225 "Super Six" w/ Weber 38 DGES
GM HEI, Nippon Denso 80A Alternator and high torque mini starter


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2022 9:45 pm 
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Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:44 pm
Posts: 108
Location: Reading, Pa.
Car Model: 1982 D150 225, 2bbl., 833 OD
I'm sure that someone who has had a similar experience will suggest the best route. It seems to me that your idea of a thinner spacer would be the easiest, cheapest way out. Maybe a machine shop could take at least a 1/4 inch off of your's?

I did find a thinner fan spacer kit for sale at Mancini. Said to be for a flex fan application though. The only one less than an inch thick. This one is a 1/2 inch. Don't know if it's a viable option for your set up, but cheaper than a machine shop.

https://www.manciniracing.com/defanspki1lo.html

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1982 Dodge D150 ( Ram)
225 with A833OD. 2bbl. Non power brakes


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:29 pm 
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EFI Slant 6

Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2016 7:25 pm
Posts: 285
Location: SW PA
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Before pulling Your hair out, try what I did on My '72 Swinger to get a non-thermostatic clutch fan to squeak in there. Loosen ALL the bolts for the engine & tranny mounts, brackets & frame & between. Use a couple of strong ratchet straps or a come-along, & pull the eng./trans rearward until all the play is gone, then torque all of the fasteners down & recheck the clearance. The B&T joint has less leeway than a slip yoke, but for this tiny bit You're good. Good luck!


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2022 2:46 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2004 8:03 pm
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Location: IRWIN PA
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I have a thick non oe Radiator in my dart.

I had to get rid of the solid fan spacer altogether.

I stacked a few washers on each fan bolt to get the clearance I needed as no spacer had the fan hitting the non oe harmonic balancer.

You can always try stacking washers or machining a stock spacer down to your required dimension. I was a bit leary about the washers but I have had no problems in say 5000 miles of driving.

You could also stack a few pulley hubs or old fan hubs with the blades cut off..

Greg


Greg

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2022 5:16 am 
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Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2002 7:57 pm
Posts: 7395
Location: Waynesboro, Pa.
Car Model: 65 Valiant 2Dr Post
My 65 Valiant runs a pusher offset just enough to the Driver side to allow the hood bracket to stay in place. Here is a link to my install, although the hood brace is off in the photo.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=35632&start=645

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2022 5:19 am 
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Joined: Sat Oct 19, 2002 12:06 pm
Posts: 7850
Location: Silver Springs, Fl.
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I have that same radiator on my 64 Valiant, and had no problem. I will have to go out and look, but I don't recall any fan spacer. I'm using the stock 4 blade fan, and do not have power steering.
Edit: I do have a spacer. It is close to 1 inch thick, and a 16 inch 4 blade fan. No power steering, but lots of room for the PS pulley. My fan is a little close to the bottom tank, but still enough room, that I wouldn't worry about it. Are you sure the radiator support has not been pushed back, sometime in its life?

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65 Valiant 100 2dr post 170 turbo
66 Valiant Signet 225 nitrous
64 Valiant Signet
64 Valiant 4dr 170


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2022 5:53 am 
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Joined: Sat Oct 19, 2002 12:06 pm
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How about motor mounts? It is possible the engine has shifted forward, due to "soggy" mounts.

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65 Valiant 100 2dr post 170 turbo
66 Valiant Signet 225 nitrous
64 Valiant Signet
64 Valiant 4dr 170


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2022 6:47 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2015 5:55 am
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Location: Brightwood, VA
Car Model: 1965 Plymouth Belvedere I
Have you tried trimming a little off the fan blades? I have done that before with pleasant results.
jus sayin....

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2022 10:37 am 
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Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 4:08 pm
Posts: 50
Location: Orangevale, California
Car Model: 1964 Dodge Dart GT - 2 door hardtop - 225 Slant 6
Charrlie_S wrote:
I have that same radiator on my 64 Valiant, and had no problem. I will have to go out and look, but I don't recall any fan spacer. I'm using the stock 4 blade fan, and do not have power steering.
Edit: I do have a spacer. It is close to 1 inch thick, and a 16 inch 4 blade fan. No power steering, but lots of room for the PS pulley. My fan is a little close to the bottom tank, but still enough room, that I wouldn't worry about it. Are you sure the radiator support has not been pushed back, sometime in its life?


I can't say that it's impossible that the radiator support has not been pushed back. What I can say is that my Dart is a 55k original mile 'garage/barn find' car with no evidence of any front end damage.

_________________
1964 Dart GT
225 "Super Six" w/ Weber 38 DGES
GM HEI, Nippon Denso 80A Alternator and high torque mini starter


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2022 10:38 am 
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Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 4:08 pm
Posts: 50
Location: Orangevale, California
Car Model: 1964 Dodge Dart GT - 2 door hardtop - 225 Slant 6
Badvert65 wrote:
Have you tried trimming a little off the fan blades? I have done that before with pleasant results.
jus sayin....


I did consider this option but was concerned about making the fan unbalanced.

_________________
1964 Dart GT
225 "Super Six" w/ Weber 38 DGES
GM HEI, Nippon Denso 80A Alternator and high torque mini starter


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2022 10:39 am 
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Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 4:08 pm
Posts: 50
Location: Orangevale, California
Car Model: 1964 Dodge Dart GT - 2 door hardtop - 225 Slant 6
Charrlie_S wrote:
How about motor mounts? It is possible the engine has shifted forward, due to "soggy" mounts.


I can't rule this out. As far as I know the mounts are the original 1964 factory units with 55k miles on them and several decades of sitting in garages. I do have a set of new poly mounts in a box that I haven't gotten around to installing yet.

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1964 Dart GT
225 "Super Six" w/ Weber 38 DGES
GM HEI, Nippon Denso 80A Alternator and high torque mini starter


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2022 10:50 am 
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Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 4:08 pm
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Location: Orangevale, California
Car Model: 1964 Dodge Dart GT - 2 door hardtop - 225 Slant 6
hank2 wrote:
I'm sure that someone who has had a similar experience will suggest the best route. It seems to me that your idea of a thinner spacer would be the easiest, cheapest way out. Maybe a machine shop could take at least a 1/4 inch off of your's?

I did find a thinner fan spacer kit for sale at Mancini. Said to be for a flex fan application though. The only one less than an inch thick. This one is a 1/2 inch. Don't know if it's a viable option for your set up, but cheaper than a machine shop.

https://www.manciniracing.com/defanspki1lo.html


Thank you for the link, I have found similar spacers from Jegs, Summit and even Amazon. I was seriously considering this spacer from Summit:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-g4954

For the shims, I was looking at this kit:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-310121

_________________
1964 Dart GT
225 "Super Six" w/ Weber 38 DGES
GM HEI, Nippon Denso 80A Alternator and high torque mini starter


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2022 10:52 am 
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Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 4:08 pm
Posts: 50
Location: Orangevale, California
Car Model: 1964 Dodge Dart GT - 2 door hardtop - 225 Slant 6
Rick Covalt wrote:
My 65 Valiant runs a pusher offset just enough to the Driver side to allow the hood bracket to stay in place. Here is a link to my install, although the hood brace is off in the photo.

https://www.slantsix.org/forum/viewtopi ... &start=645


Nice install. How do you like the Griffin radiator? I'm a big fan of crossflow radiators and plan to get a Griffin unit for my '81 Nissan 280ZX.

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1964 Dart GT
225 "Super Six" w/ Weber 38 DGES
GM HEI, Nippon Denso 80A Alternator and high torque mini starter


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2022 11:10 am 
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Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2016 7:25 pm
Posts: 285
Location: SW PA
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MadMechanic wrote:
Charrlie_S wrote:
How about motor mounts? It is possible the engine has shifted forward, due to "soggy" mounts.


I can't rule this out. As far as I know the mounts are the original 1964 factory units with 55k miles on them and several decades of sitting in garages. I do have a set of new poly mounts in a box that I haven't gotten around to installing yet.

Try what I've suggested above, there is a lot of tolerance "build-up", & just getting all the play in the brackets to eng., to tailshaft, & mounts to frame & crossmember shifted in Your favor can give more than You might expect. Once tightened up, they'll not need fooled with again. If You need to remove any of it, it is easy to reinstall in the identical position...


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2022 12:10 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2002 7:57 pm
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Location: Waynesboro, Pa.
Car Model: 65 Valiant 2Dr Post
My radiator works great and keeps the car cool easily in nearly 100 degree temps, and mine is in a race car with 11.5 compression.... etc.

My personal opinion is that an ecletric fan is the way to go. It gives a lot of extra room and no worries about loosing any fingers. I know pullers are supposedly better, but mine works fine in the pusher set up. My street truck is set up the same with a little wider cross flow radiator, and the electric fan runs virtually none of the time as long as you are moving
even a little. Same push through set up on it too.

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2 Mopars come with Spark plug tubes. One is a world class, racing machine. The other is a 426 CI. boat anchor!
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12.80 @ 102.88
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