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 Post subject: Re: AC Delete
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2022 10:29 am 
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Turbo EFI
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Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:00 pm
Posts: 2369
Location: kankakee IL
Car Model: 80 volare, 78 fury 2 dr, 85 D150
GregCon wrote:

Then....with modern cars you are obligated to use AC because you can't drive with the windows down.

I like AC as much as anyone, but it has its costs.


Really? I haven't seen a vehicle yet that I can't put into gear with the windows open but these ones that stall at every stop light is downright STUPID no matter how "new fangled" the "tech" is that allows (and dictates) it.


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 Post subject: Re: AC Delete
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2022 11:51 am 
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Supercharged

Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 6:48 pm
Posts: 3564
Location: Indianapolis
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Don I agree with you. The newest vehicle I own is the 96 Sonoma, but I have rented a new Nissan Altima, a Dodge Durango and a Ford Edge, with all of them the windows were operational with the vehicle in motion.

Greg Con, please identify the vehicle that you are speaking of that locks the windows up when the car is in gear. I would like to check that out.

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Last edited by DadTruck on Mon Apr 18, 2022 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: AC Delete
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2022 12:41 pm 
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Board Sponsor & SL6 Racer

Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2002 7:57 pm
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Location: Waynesboro, Pa.
Car Model: 65 Valiant 2Dr Post
I'd like to avoid them! :D

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 Post subject: Re: AC Delete
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2022 1:32 pm 
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Supercharged

Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 6:48 pm
Posts: 3564
Location: Indianapolis
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Relax Rick, there are no cars like that.

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 Post subject: Re: AC Delete
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2022 2:22 pm 
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Turbo EFI
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Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:00 pm
Posts: 2369
Location: kankakee IL
Car Model: 80 volare, 78 fury 2 dr, 85 D150
At work I have seen as new as 2020 ford pickups and haven't seen that yet.


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 Post subject: Re: AC Delete
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2022 3:59 pm 
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Board Sponsor & Moderator
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Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2002 7:27 pm
Posts: 13326
Location: Park Forest, Illinoisy
Car Model: 68 Valiant
My Ram will operate with all the windows open. It will not switch out of Park with a door open though.

My gray Ram had the shutdown system at stoplights. It annoyed me at first, but after awhile I didn't notice it anymore. My red one does not have that feature.

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 Post subject: Re: AC Delete
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2022 4:16 pm 
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SL6 Racer & Moderator
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Posts: 7850
Location: Silver Springs, Fl.
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Hey guys, I'm just being a "smart ass" about the windows.

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 Post subject: Re: AC Delete
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2022 7:21 pm 
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Board Sponsor & Moderator
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Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2002 7:27 pm
Posts: 13326
Location: Park Forest, Illinoisy
Car Model: 68 Valiant
Hopefully everyone knew it.......

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 Post subject: Re: AC Delete
PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2022 7:30 am 
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Supercharged
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The "Box" in question in the original poster's Question... Highlighted in read is the Expansion Valve / Expansion Block.

Greg

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 Post subject: Re: AC Delete
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2022 9:54 am 
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Board Sponsor & Contributor

Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2002 5:39 pm
Posts: 23747
Location: North America
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GregCon wrote:
there is a world of difference between the AC compressor most Slant Sixes were born with and the AC compressor of a modern vehicle. The modern AC compressor uses little power and is usually 6 or 8 vanes which give a very smooth operation. The old AC compressor (R2) is a mini-Harley Davidson engine...a V-twin that takes some power to run and has a pretty chunky rotation.


That's half-right. The 4- to 7-cylinder (not vane) compressors in common use now are much smoother (and scroll-type "zero-cylinder" compressors even smoother still) than the Chrysler, York, and Tecumseh 2-cylinder compressors, which exert very peaky loads with resultant noise, vibration, and belt issues. But there is not a significant difference in the overall amount of power required to drive the compressor; it takes a certain amount of work to compress a certain amount of refrigerant to a certain degree, no matter what kind of machine you use to do the job.

Quote:
Who thinks a modern 1.6L 4 cylinder engine would be able to idle in Drive with an R2 hanging off it?


I do, but only 'cuz it would. :mrgreen:

Quote:
Even on a V8, when you turn on the R2 you can tell something happened under the hood.


Even on a brand-new 2022 car of any engine cylinder count, when you turn on the A/C you can tell something happened under the hood.

Quote:
In the olden days, it was a rule of thumb that AC would cost you 2MPG.


…where "rule of thumb" here means "made-up random number pulled out of thin air". I'm not saying you made it up, just that it belongs filed with all those other random made-up numbers (change your oil every 3,000 miles, warm up your car for 10 minutes in the morning, etc).

Quote:
nothing like the old refrigerants which would form ice on the vents.


Newer refrigerants do at least as well, sometimes better, in a system appropriately configured for them. I used to be a staunch advocate of R12, and for some years I flirted with one of the zeotropic blends (R406A/Autofrost), but every time I thought I perceived a cooling deficit due to R134a, it was in fact caused by something else—most often an inadequate condenser. Fix that, and R134a does a terrific job. Most opinions that R134a is poopy stem from half-baked conversions of R12 systems that were often underspecified to begin with, and/or had an impossible job of trying to cool a poorly-insulated, leaky solar oven on wheels. Arizona Mobile Air did a big refrigerants-and-condensers test that nicely illustrates the point. Look at the vent temps, yes, and also the high-side pressures. Quick spot check: 110° ambient, 100° in-car temp, R134a refrigerant. Tube/fin condenser gave 49° vent temps, 32 PSI low side, 321 PSI high side. Parallel-flow condenser gave 42° vent temps, 27 PSI low side, 240 PSI high side. That's 15% lower vent temp, 15% lower low-side pressure, and 25% lower high-side pressure by upgrading the condenser.

Quote:
Luckily, our scientists discovered the Earth was within 3 hours of total explosion


Got a suggestion for which planet we might move to when we're done trashing this one?

As for whether windows or A/C is better for fuel economy, see here and here and here, then pick which answer you like best.

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 Post subject: Re: AC Delete
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2022 7:29 am 
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Turbo Slant 6

Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:29 pm
Posts: 726
Location: Houston
Car Model: 68 Valiant
I never said the windows would lock when the car is rolling....although I would predict the Biden-voting sort of populace would be all for that.

What I mean by 'you can't drive with the windows down' is that modern vehicles will buffet your ears with turbulence so as to make you unwilling to drive the car that way. If you don't believe me....and have never tried it yet (?)....go drive at 70MPH with your windows down and your head will take enough of a beating that you (hopefully) will give up within half a minute. On the other hand, roll down the windows at 70MPH in your 1967 New Yorker and it's actually pretty pleasant. Night and day difference.

I have little time or patience to wade into all of Dan's 'arguments' but suffice it to say modern compressors and AC systems are notably more efficient than those of 50 years ago....that translates to a lower HP demand. Period. Much like a car of today requires less HP to push it through the wind, an AC system of today requires less HP to run. Similarly, modern refrigerants are used not because of performance but because of emotional science.

Different refrigerants have different levels of efficiency. If we REALLY wanted to use a good refrigerant, we'd use ammonia. But the risk of death, apparently, has done away with that. But if you were to remove that threat, ammonia is king.


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 Post subject: Re: AC Delete
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2022 4:05 pm 
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Board Sponsor & SL6 Racer

Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2002 7:57 pm
Posts: 7395
Location: Waynesboro, Pa.
Car Model: 65 Valiant 2Dr Post
Quote:
What I mean by 'you can't drive with the windows down' is that modern vehicles will buffet your ears with turbulence so as to make you unwilling to drive the car that way.


Got it! Thanks! :D

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2 Mopars come with Spark plug tubes. One is a world class, racing machine. The other is a 426 CI. boat anchor!
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 Post subject: Re: AC Delete
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2022 4:31 pm 
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Board Sponsor & Contributor

Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2002 5:39 pm
Posts: 23747
Location: North America
Car Model:
GregCon wrote:
Period


Ya know, GregCon, for someone who likes to kvetch about what a knowitall I am…!

I'm just sayin', is all.

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 Post subject: Re: AC Delete
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2022 9:37 pm 
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TBI Slant 6
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Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 6:38 pm
Posts: 178
Location: Seattle
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I see some very informed and researched points being made here (SSD) and then I see someone unwilling to engage in the discourse. And then there is your pathetic appeal for approval on political grounds. Hello, none of us true Slant Six people want to hear about your politics. We are a very small community that focuses on our cars/engines and you are trying to divide us even more? Please, just stop.

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 Post subject: Re: AC Delete
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2022 7:15 am 
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Turbo EFI
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Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:00 pm
Posts: 2369
Location: kankakee IL
Car Model: 80 volare, 78 fury 2 dr, 85 D150
Greg Ondayko wrote:
The "Box" in question in the original poster's Question... Highlighted in read is the Expansion Valve / Expansion Block.

Greg

I was looking at the block just in front and slightly offset from there with the 2 wires coming off of it.


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