These are interesting ideas, but nothing can really beat a good, tight fast-ratio manual box when it all comes down to it. ESPECIALLY if it's an A-body.
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| Electric Power Steering Pump https://www.slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20652 |
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| Author: | Bren67Cuda904 [ Wed Nov 08, 2006 12:06 pm ] |
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Straight line yes and the weight consideration yes I agree. However I saw an electric power steering pump that was one unit. (motor and pump) http://www.bba-reman.com/content.aspx?c ... ering_pump Even droping the steering pump idea just adding a relay and switch to drop the field would free up some power at full thottle. The electric fans draw heavly on the alternator. How much HP is 50 amp draw? I don't know but 10 HP seems likely. A relay and switch doesn't weight to much. I am building a garage. Keep throwing the bricks. The termites won't eat them here. |
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| Author: | SlantSixDan [ Wed Nov 08, 2006 1:00 pm ] |
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50 amps @ 13 volts = 650 watts. One horsepower = 746 watts. So, 50 amps = 0.87 horsepower. MSD claim their ignition system's output doesn't drop off with reduced input voltage, which is a claim not very easily supportable by science. If ignition output drops enough to reduce engine power by a tiny 1 percent, and you are starting with 180 horsepower, that 1% loss will mean you lose 1.8 horsepower. Sooner or later, perhaps the futility and counterproductiveness of these electric P/S and field cutout ideas will get through to you. Or, maybe not, and you'll go ahead and waste a bunch of time, money and effort on it. Either way, no skin of my nose, nor off the noses of everyone else who's telling you you're not thinking along productive lines. America is a place where every individual is free to be as silly as he wants. Go to it! |
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| Author: | 440_Magnum [ Wed Nov 08, 2006 1:20 pm ] |
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Quote: Drag strip guys disconnect the field wire all the time.
If they want to lose, maybe.
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| Author: | 440_Magnum [ Wed Nov 08, 2006 1:23 pm ] |
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Quote: I think where the confusion is that I am not looking for overall power gains. I am looking for the most when the throttle is wide open.
So do you typically saw the wheel back and forth at WOT, thus causing the PS pump to draw power from the engine?If not, then don't bother screwing around with the PS. It only draws significant engine power when it has to *work*. |
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| Author: | 440_Magnum [ Wed Nov 08, 2006 1:33 pm ] |
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Quote: Straight line yes and the weight consideration yes I agree. However I saw an electric power steering pump that was one unit. (motor and pump)
Great googally moogally! You want to *reduce* the load on the engine, right? How does converting engine power to electricity (20% power wasted), then electric to hydraulic (a good 40% wasted) and then hydraulic to mechanical (steering, another 20% wasted) save ANYTHING? It is worse than engine->hyrraulic->mechanical by far!http://www.bba-reman.com/content.aspx?c ... ering_pump Quote:
Even droping the steering pump idea just adding a relay and switch to drop the field would free up some power at full thottle. The electric fans draw heavly on the alternator. How much HP is 50 amp draw? I don't know but 10 HP seems likely.
One horsepower is 746 watts. To compute watts, you multiply the current times the voltage drop. So 50 amps at 13.5 volts is (13.5*50)=675 watts, or about 0.9 horsepower. Assuming that the alternator is 80% efficient, then thats 0.9/0.8, or about 1 and 1/8th horsepower drawn from the crankshaft. Chicken feed.But if you really, really want that 1-1/8 horse (or you just want better consistency so you can win at bracket racing) the better solution at the dragstrip is to have a switch that overrides the *fan* motors during the run down the strip, leaving the alternator running at minimum load to keep the voltage at 13.5 and thus keep the ignition as hot as possible. |
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| Author: | argentina-slantsixer [ Wed Nov 08, 2006 3:44 pm ] |
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it's kinda dumb, especially using the early chrysler pump wich has 2 flow gizmos so at greater revolutions they reduce the pressure. but thinking ain't doing... I've wasted a lot of time thinking stupid things and then some of them dumb ideas turned into real tricky good solutions... don't get so heated off over a question or youre gonna drop dead in fon of the computer man... cool off! (by using electro fans, hahahahaha) |
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| Author: | zedpapa [ Wed Nov 08, 2006 8:54 pm ] |
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the Acura NSX had electric power assisted steering as does the new Toyota MR2. the NSX can get away with because of the car being lighter on the front end due to the mid-engine set-up. it did not use a hydraulic assist but had a "motor" wrapped around the rack-and-pinion that "pulled" the rack in either direction. how much power it pulled, i have no idea. the MR2 is also a mid-engine but i am not sure how the power steering is done, whether or not it had a fluid. i seem to remember reading somewhere that it had a electric motor attached to a hydraulic pump. if this is the case, then they get away not running the pump because of the nature of a rack-and-pinion. even without assist, steering is still tight and doesn't get sloppy like the boxes in our cars. now, the BMW's have a steering box that even without assist, does not get sloppy. still don't know why. is it a good idea? yes. can it be applied to our cars? not efficently. does it have anything to do with drive-by-wire? not at all. it is done in the quest for mpg. zedpapa |
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| Author: | Orange72 [ Wed Nov 08, 2006 10:24 pm ] |
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These are interesting ideas, but nothing can really beat a good, tight fast-ratio manual box when it all comes down to it. ESPECIALLY if it's an A-body.
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| Author: | emsvitil [ Wed Nov 08, 2006 11:00 pm ] |
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I think some of the impetus for electric power steering is packaging...... They can stuff it in a car that normally wouldn't have room for it. |
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| Author: | KBB_of_TMC [ Thu Nov 09, 2006 3:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Fyi |
Just FYI, I've read of some new system that use pure electronic, rather than hydro assist - they only work when needed and are supposed to consume much less power. If I remember correctly, they were integral inside the rack-and-pinion. |
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| Author: | kesteb [ Thu Nov 09, 2006 4:37 pm ] |
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Flaming River makes a electricaly assisted power steering box. It doesn't drive a hrydralic pump, but is bolted between the steering shaft and the steering box. Check there web site for details. |
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| Author: | DionR [ Thu Nov 09, 2006 5:08 pm ] |
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Quote: Flaming River makes a electricaly assisted power steering box. It doesn't drive a hrydralic pump, but is bolted between the steering shaft and the steering box. Check there web site for details.
I think that is the same one I saw in a street rod mag a little bit ago.It's an electric motor that assists when it reads resistance to turning the wheel. If it takes more than "x" force to turn the wheel, the motor is juiced until the force is reduced. No hp draw unless you are parking. If I remember correctly, it is even programable for speed or resistance, or something (it uses a ecm to control the voltages). May not work for a Valiant, but it is an interesting thought. I think the goal was power steering on a streetrod without trying to mount a pump. It may not be a 1:1 correlation, but people run water pumps with little electric motors, so getting rid of belts and using electric motors must be worth some hp. Maybe not, I'm not a hardcore racer and I need my junk to get me home so I've never tried one. |
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| Author: | AnotherSix [ Thu Nov 09, 2006 7:19 pm ] |
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Why not just accept reality? Cutting off the alternator really is a waste. At peak rpm you really need your peak voltage. Running on the battery which may be pulled down below 12 volts in most of the system is a joke, why would you want that? If you are only running an ignition you might not see a loss in engine power, maybe. It is often assumed that certain ignitions draw a certain amount of current. The point missed is that many, like the HEI, draw and need high current for very brief fractions of time during the ignition cycle. You won't even see it with an ammeter and it won't blow a marginally sized fuse, the performance will just suffer if the voltage is low or the primary wire is too small. On cars with efi even the normal voltage regulator setting is low for max performance. I have run a boost activated switch on my Grand National for years that connects a resister array(really just two resisters) to the sensor terminal on the alternator and turns up the voltage to about 14.5 volts at the fuse box under load when your foot is in it. This helps the fuel pump, injectors and ignition all to do their jobs while lowering their amp draw slightly. This makes a measurable improvement to performance and is a mod that has been documented many times in many cars. You may not have EFI, but cutting off the alternator is going in the wrong direction. Try cold air induction(which will make a differnce) or talk to some drag racers about aligning the front end for minimal straight line drag, (get skinny front tires). Take the spare and jack out, run with half tank of gas, limit all electrical load like fans, blower motor, lights, radio etc., if you shut anything off, make it them. Dan was right on in pointing out that every time you use electricity, you waste some of the energy, so trying to go electric is just out of the question for some things. There is always manual steering. |
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| Author: | 440_Magnum [ Mon Nov 13, 2006 1:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fyi |
Quote: Just FYI, I've read of some new system that use pure electronic, rather than hydro assist - they only work when needed and are supposed to consume much less power. If I remember correctly, they were integral inside the rack-and-pinion.
Yes, these are out in the wild now and they DO make sense. I think one of the first production vehicles to use electric steering assist was (of all things...) the Saturn Vue, but there are lots of them out there now. The PS pump is going the way of the dinosaur.But the key thing for this discussion is that the systems now being used are DIRECT ACTING electric assist, not some electric to hydraulic frankenstein monster that would use even more power than straight hydraulic. |
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