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Oil Weight Question
https://www.slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=23530		 Page 2 of 3
Author:  Charrlie_S [ Tue Jun 12, 2007 5:10 am ]
Post subject: 
I have one, I got from Kevin. Haven't used it yet. It is for one of my "good" engines.

Remember, a crank scraper fits very close to the crank, and the slant six, haveing 3 different strokes (170-198-225) requires three different scrapers. You need the correct one for your engine.

Kevin, Can I just get the updated piece to use with my existing scraper?
Author:  mrhite65 [ Fri Jun 15, 2007 4:31 pm ]
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What about the oil pump? My oil gage (mechanical) reads 50 when I start it up and drops to 25 when at operating temp. I heard if you have an engine from 81 to 87 (hydraulic) that it's better to have a high volume pump because, the engine oils the valves from the top down. Should I do this? I have an 82 225.
Author:  Kevin Johnson [ Sat Jun 16, 2007 4:24 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
I have one, I got from Kevin. Haven't used it yet. It is for one of my "good" engines.

Remember, a crank scraper fits very close to the crank, and the slant six, haveing 3 different strokes (170-198-225) requires three different scrapers. You need the correct one for your engine.

Kevin, Can I just get the updated piece to use with my existing scraper?
Yes, no problem. Sorry about the delay -- must have had the settings wrong on monitoring the thread.
Author:  Charrlie_S [ Sat Jun 16, 2007 4:49 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
What about the oil pump? My oil gage (mechanical) reads 50 when I start it up and drops to 25 when at operating temp. I heard if you have an engine from 81 to 87 (hydraulic) that it's better to have a high volume pump because, the engine oils the valves from the top down. Should I do this? I have an 82 225.
Is this oil pressure at idle, or at RPM? is the oil a 10-30 or heavier? If a 10-30 oil at idle the oil pressure is just fine, and you need to do nothing. The original (oem) oil pump for the slant, only has a 5/8 rotor, the aftermarket stock replacement pumps have a 7/8 rotor, so this is already a "high volume" pump. The aftermarket pumps, advertised as "high volume" have a bigger rotor yet. Theses are not a good idea for the slant six. It puts a lot of extra strain on the oil pump drive gears, and they are not neccessary. If you feel you need a high volume pump, to get enough oil, something else is wrong.
Author:  mrhite65 [ Sat Jun 16, 2007 3:08 pm ]
Post subject: 
Oil pressure is at idle. Its 50 at rpms.
Author:  mopar79sean [ Sat Jun 16, 2007 3:30 pm ]
Post subject: 
I think I'll pick up a crank scraper on my slant build up. I've been interested in seeing how it will do with one. Motor specs can be seen in the CAIN intake interest topic and any good input would be much appreciated.
Author:  Charrlie_S [ Sat Jun 16, 2007 7:12 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Oil pressure is at idle. Its 50 at rpms.
You are good to go.
Author:  Rug_Trucker [ Sun Jun 17, 2007 8:22 am ]
Post subject: 
New oils lack ZDDP which we need to keep flat tappet cams alive.

10-30 diesel oil is what I was running. Rotella. They have reduced the ZDDP in it. I got a buy on 15-40 Valvoline Premium Blue diesel oil. It has tons of ZDDP even meets miltary specs. I wish they had it in 10-30.

Thinner oil has less HP loss due to the HP it takes to turn the oil pump. 5HP added by using a scraper on a 5000RPM or less engine? Give me dyno proof.

Maybe adding STP oil treatment can replace the ZDDP that car oils lack?

Here you go http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/sho ... t=all&vc=1

Click on all the links and enjoy!
Author:  Kevin Johnson [ Sun Jun 17, 2007 10:17 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
-snip-
Thinner oil has less HP loss due to the HP it takes to turn the oil pump. 5HP added by using a scraper on a 5000RPM or less engine? Give me dyno proof.

-snip-
You're behind the curve here. Nismo reported 7-8 hp windage loss (5% of output) simply by adding a girdle to the SR20 and KA24. Scrapers shift it the other way.

Ask Wilson for a copy of his dyno sheet; I'd think it easily got back more than 5hp at 5000:
Quote:
Wilson Martin of Kingsville, Texas reported that he picked up a shade under 15 hp at 6275 rpm using our scraper on his stock stroke 440. The dyno curves began diverging at 2800-2900 rpm. He did a baseline pull with a CRE girdle and Milodon louvered windage tray in place.
I like the fact that it gave that back over and above a louvered windage tray. And that was a single scraper -- now there are duals.

And remember that these are engines sitting still while being dynoed.

I think that Rafe's comments about no more oil pump gear breakage is a reflection of the huge amount of windage in a SL6 with resulting air entrainment. Puts a lot of stress on the gears -- loading/unloading.

Guys, I pulled the sump off a Mercedes straight six and it has vertical scrapers coming off the sump floor ala Porsche and Ford.

Well, at least the argument has progressed from "they don't do anything" to "how much do they do at XXXXrpms?" :wink:
Author:  Kevin Johnson [ Sun Jun 17, 2007 11:52 am ]
Post subject:  Pumping issues in a SL6
Pumping losses and the oil carried along with and struck by the rotating assembly are probably worse in a straight six than a straight four or V8, In the four bays 1-2 and 3-4 tranfer air; in the V8 it is normally across single bays.

In a straight six bays 1-3, 2-3, 1-2 and mirrored on the other end of the crank. As the windage attempts to cross from 1 to 3 it must pass over/through 2. The atmosphere and oil being struck by the rotating assembly causes friction -- parasitic losses from the power that could be generated.

If I had to guess, I would think that the windage patterns based on pumping shift back and forth from counter-rotating pairs of the first and last three bays to a major cyclical movement up and down the block opposite the central axis of the crank.

Look at the Toyota 2ZZ engine and you can see how the engineers have built in counter-rotating horizontal pumping paths/chambers for bays 1-2 and 3-4.

More on the ZZ series...

Quote:
From SAE 981087 discussing the design of the 1ZZ

6) Parts reduction
Drastically reduce the number of parts used,
thereby reducing the overall weight and cost and
improving ease of assembly and cost.
Quote:
From SAE 2000-01-0671
OTHER FEATURES FOR HIGH SPEED OPERATION
Oil Pan – Figure 11 shows oil pan and baffle plate set on
the ladder frame. The oil pan itself is without a baffle.
This quickens the return of oil into the oil pan, increasing
performance. Air suction was minimized by optimally
positioning the suction pipe inlet. The 2ZZ-GE can
withstand 1.0G without sucking air.
The emphasis on cost is missing but assuredly still present. Direct inspection of the parts involved show that the "baffle" is indeed missing from the pan but is now attached to the engine with four bolts (a baffle with scraper louvers too -- imagine that -- might that be how the oil is "really" returned more quickly :wink: ). Inspection of a newly made 1ZZ pan shows hand-made inspection strokes in white marking pen of all 10 spot welds -- time consuming.

There is more worth remarking upon but the idea is simple: Just because a component is no longer found in an engine or not found to begin with does not mean it would not help that engine. This same analysis would apply to the engineering done at Dodge with respect to the OE scraper and windage tray designed for the Neon 2.0.

You have to read between the lines quite often and analyze what's going on. It's real work to do this analysis -- I don't just pull wishful thinking from the stars and put it online.
Author:  Kevin Johnson [ Sun Jun 24, 2007 5:14 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
I have one, I got from Kevin. Haven't used it yet. It is for one of my "good" engines.

Remember, a crank scraper fits very close to the crank, and the slant six, haveing 3 different strokes (170-198-225) requires three different scrapers. You need the correct one for your engine.

Kevin, Can I just get the updated piece to use with my existing scraper?
I am just going to send you a new set cut in 16 gauge. Charrlie lent us engines to make the original patterns.

Pics:

Image


Image
Author:  MoJoe [ Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:42 am ]
Post subject: 
Buy the generic store brand name synthetic like Auto Value's or Car Quest, it is usually around $3.00 / quart and ask who makes it for them it is often a well known brand name. Beats paying 5+ for Mobile One.
Author:  mrhite65 [ Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:47 pm ]
Post subject: 
I'm thinking of getting trop artic 10w30 synthetic blend @$1.85 and STP oil treartment @$1.89 at my local farm/ranch store. But, I will have to go somewhere else for the oil filter. They only have Fram and a counter part Pensoil oil filters.
Author:  Rug_Trucker [ Mon Jun 25, 2007 4:28 pm ]
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I think the Pennzoil might be a decent filter. Walmart sells Mopar filters now. Their Tech filters are suppossed to be decent too.
Author:  mrhite65 [ Mon Jun 25, 2007 6:17 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
I think the Pennzoil might be a decent filter. Walmart sells Mopar filters now. Their Tech filters are suppossed to be decent too.
You might want to look at this site. http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilters.html
It says that Pennzoil filters are made by Fram. And check the Mopars!
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