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State of the Dart
https://www.slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=51886		 Page 2 of 2
Author:  Dart270 [ Wed May 01, 2013 12:30 pm ]
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Hi Sam,

I know you are a very smart guy, and don't ever let my comments of any kind make you think otherwise. I think this thing came out about 4-5 yrs ago, but not exactly sure when. I used a locked distributor, and I think that is the best way to use it. The main issue is that you cannot adjust timing freely (25 deg limit on both MAP and RPM maps). About $400 with optional external MAP sensor. I have worked around this and it allows me ALMOST as much timing advance as I want on the hwy, while pulling back timing for boost and low RPM.

We can discuss in Hagerstown. I can share my timing maps/files with you if you go this way.

Lou
Author:  Rick Covalt [ Wed May 01, 2013 6:18 pm ]
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Quote:
Smart people learn from others' mistakes. And honest people admit their mistakes so smart people can learn from them. But they blush a lot.
Sam, like Lou said you are very smart! And most of all you have some serious "sticktuitivenesss"!!! :lol: I am so far behind you folks when it comes to electrical stuff that I can barely think of an intelligent question to ask.

As you said, Honest people admit their mistakes. But the other part is that the honest man (In this case me) has to know his limitations. And I know mine. My HEI has 4 wires, and I know where they go. That is my limit.

I have no doubt that you will finally get this all worked out and everyone can learn from you. You are, after all, teaching us something too!

Good Luck!
Rick
Author:  Sam Powell [ Wed May 01, 2013 7:10 pm ]
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I do appreciate your support. I took photos of the board from the ECU and forwarded them to Matt. He says it can handle the Ford EDIS as the ECU is currently configured. Can anyone tell me of stories they have heard of the EDIS breaking down under boost?. I do not want to jump from the frying pan into the fire. I went on You Tube, and found lots of guys who have used the EDIS with Mega Squirt on turbo cars, but these were mostly small displacement engines. I found a few VW's a Mazda,and a Porche or two. There are likely more.

First step is to get the trigger wheel and pick up working well. That can be used to supply the ECu with rpm read and then fire the coils directly if I wanted to go that route. But I am growing fonder of the EDIS idea.

I drove the car to band practice tonight, and I'm telling you, this a gem except for the breakdown under boost. It will now start from a stop by simply letting out the clutch slowly with no throttle added. It no longer scares me stopped at traffic lights. I used to be concerned it would die, and then not start in the middle of an intersection. Those days are now gone. I want to keep them gone.

Sam
Author:  65CrewCabPW [ Wed May 01, 2013 11:23 pm ]
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I run the EDIS system on my propane motor. Initially, I had issues with ignition noise drowning the CB signals totally. I went so far as to put grounded copper mesh over the ignition wires, which only helped some. It also caused the EDIS / Megajolt combination to misbehave a lot, including ignition interruption and occaisional backfire / tailpipe explosions. I played with the filtering settings to try to stop the surging and cutting out and it reduced it, but did not fix it.

In the end, I ended up doing the following, cumulatively, and now the EDIS is fine (with the exception of a backfire into the carb just as the motor starts).

1. Added very large capacitor to power input of EDIS module and coil.
2. Added inductive filtering to reduce the feedback into the rest of the wiring system.
3. Changed from the shielded and grounded wires to Belden low resistance wires.
4. Changed to Champion resistor plugs (I had NGK race plugs before).

My engine will pull flawlessly to 4200, rich or lean, on propane - I have a very high compression ratio. as well, which needs more spark power. If I can run propane and work ok, so will a few psi on gas. Propane is known to require considerably more voltage to fire, especially if high compression and / or lean.

Also, I noticed that TWO of my previous sets of spark plug wires had the metal connector only about a half inch back up inside the spark plug boot end. I found that they began leaking down the boot and jumping to the head ( non tube head) under certain lean conditions. This is what I suspect is happening to you. Dielectric grease would help, but only until the combination of heat and time dried it out.

The NAPA wires ( I use wires for a chrysler 3.3 to fit an LH car, also the coil for the same motor) have the connector way back deep in the boot, so that the boot reaches pretty much to the end of the ceramic insulator. I haven't had a misfire since.

I believe the backfire on startup is related to the wasted spark and propane carb. Wasted spark should probably not be used without the MPFI. Initially, it used to fire out the tailpipe upon startup, instead of the carb, but it changed for some reason.

I never even considered using the original distributor on propane. Every other slant six I have had has had totally inadequate ignition performance, in my opinion. The spark on this thing now is intense and if you get bit you'd think lightning struck.
Author:  Pierre [ Thu May 02, 2013 2:11 am ]
Post subject: 
Low resistance wires and those braided / grounded mesh are both no-nos when it comes to interference protection. The magnecore site goes into details if you want the nitty gritty.

"Very large" is relative I suppose but 25uf is plenty. Look at the megasquirt edis diagrams or stock applications

Inductive filtering? The concept certainly works, but have you ever seen it on mainstream OEM applications?
Author:  Sam Powell [ Thu May 02, 2013 4:31 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
I played with the filtering settings to try to stop the surging and cutting out and it reduced it, but did not fix it.
Been there done that.
Quote:
In the end, I ended up doing the following, cumulatively, and now the EDIS is fine (with the exception of a backfire into the carb just as the motor starts).

1. Added very large capacitor to power input of EDIS module and coil.
2. Added inductive filtering to reduce the feedback into the rest of the wiring system.
What is inductive filtering? Is this choke coils? I have added those all over the system. These are common on all computer products.

Quote:
3. Changed from the shielded and grounded wires to Belden low resistance wires.
Do you mean spark plug wires here? If so I have done that.
Quote:
4. Changed to Champion resistor plugs (I had NGK race plugs before).
I am currently using the same plugs you are. I took the NGK plugs out as well.
Quote:
My engine will pull flawlessly to 4200, rich or lean, on propane - I have a very high compression ratio. as well, which needs more spark power. If I can run propane and work ok, so will a few psi on gas. Propane is known to require considerably more voltage to fire, especially if high compression and / or lean.

Also, I noticed that TWO of my previous sets of spark plug wires had the metal connector only about a half inch back up inside the spark plug boot end. I found that they began leaking down the boot and jumping to the head ( non tube head) under certain lean conditions. This is what I suspect is happening to you. Dielectric grease would help, but only until the combination of heat and time dried it out.
If leakage were the problem, would it miss only under boost conditions?
Quote:
The NAPA wires ( I use wires for a chrysler 3.3 to fit an LH car, also the coil for the same motor) have the connector way back deep in the boot, so that the boot reaches pretty much to the end of the ceramic insulator. I haven't had a misfire since.
I think I have the same spark plug wires you are using on it now. One of my steps was to get rid of the Magna Core wires.
Quote:
I believe the backfire on startup is related to the wasted spark and propane carb. Wasted spark should probably not be used without the MPFI. Initially, it used to fire out the tailpipe upon startup, instead of the carb, but it changed for some reason.
What is MPFI?
Quote:
never even considered using the original distributor on propane. Every other slant six I have had has had totally inadequate ignition performance, in my opinion. The spark on this thing now is intense and if you get bit you'd think lightning struck.
Thanks for sharing your approach to fixing the ignition interference that seems to be part and parcel of putting electronics under the hood of an old "dirty,noisy' car. The open question is whether the HEI is simply not strong enough to work under boost, OR noise is the problem. I have already done much of what you talk about, and it runs perfectly when not in boost.
Sam
Author:  Pierre [ Fri May 03, 2013 9:32 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
What is MPFI?
Multi Port Fuel Injection - one injector per cylinder / intake runner as opposed to just in the throttle body.
Author:  Sam Powell [ Fri May 03, 2013 6:33 pm ]
Post subject: 
Thanks. I have seen that as MPI.

Sam
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