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Alternative fixes for small oil pan leak
https://www.slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=60842		 Page 2 of 2
Author:  Sonic Purity [ Fri Jun 10, 2022 1:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative fixes for small oil pan leak
Quote:
Quote:
...Is this a combo leak of the front gasket AND somewhere up higher? Not sure how to interpret what i’m seeing, thus unsure how to proceed.
It looks like the front crank seal is leaking. Also looks like the joint between the timing cover and oil pan but if you replace the crank seal you will have the timing cover off and will need to replace the related gaskets to put it back together.

If I was going to dive into this job I'd also replace the timing chain, gears and water pump. Unless those things have low mileage.
Makes sense. Now the questions in my mind become:
  • * What constitutes “low mileage”?
    * Are currently-available parts of sufficient quality to be as good as older, worn (to some degree) parts?
Previous owner claims “new engine” 8 June 1987 when the vehicle had 55,056 miles. I bought the van (i’m the second owner) in 1989 with about 60,000 on it. It currently has (1)34336 miles.

February 2009 at (1)26196 miles i was having distributor issues. At that time i did the whole check with the piston stop to check the timing mark for slippage: none found. Timing mark was mechanically right on. No issues with timing since rebuilding the distributor at this time/mileage.

No known issues with the water pump. None of the drips have ever been coolant-like. I am planning to take Dan’s advice and switch to the Evans water-free coolant, which i mention in case it makes it more or less desirable/important to change/mess with the water pump.

I’ve only been driving this vehicle about 1000 miles/year over the past decade. Might go up slightly, but with the cost of gasoline (esp. here in California), might not, so not expecting any huge changes in driving habits.

This will be a big job and a big deal for me, so i’m trying to work out as many known parts etc. before getting into it.

Looking forward to your-all’s thoughts on what’s desirable/necessary to replace, given this additional information and context.

Thanks ProCycle, Greg, and everyone else.
Author:  ProCycle [ Fri Jun 10, 2022 2:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative fixes for small oil pan leak
So, assuming the previous owner's story was correct the timing chain has 80K miles on it. I'd say the timing chain may not be 'worn out' but most likely quite ready to be refreshed. Once the timing cover is off it isn't much additional work or expense to replace the timing set. When these engines were first designed nobody really expected to get over 100K without a rebuild or major repairs. So 80K is a long way from 'low mileage'.
Author:  Sonic Purity [ Mon Jun 13, 2022 1:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative fixes for small oil pan leak
Quote:
So, assuming the previous owner's story was correct the timing chain has 80K miles on it. I'd say the timing chain may not be 'worn out' but most likely quite ready to be refreshed. Once the timing cover is off it isn't much additional work or expense to replace the timing set. When these engines were first designed nobody really expected to get over 100K without a rebuild or major repairs. So 80K is a long way from 'low mileage'.
Thanks for the clarity. I fell into the trap of 1) not thinking through the mileage numbers, 2) cognitive distortion that i haven’t owned the van “that long” when it’s been 33 years :shock:

Ready to pull the trigger on some things from Rock Auto:
Cloyes timing set C-3022K
Timken 3095 seal
and Fel-Pro TCS127691 timing cover gasket, which gets confusing because it includes a seal. Can’t find a gasket without a seal; unsure if the seal Fel-Pro throws in is good enough and i ought to delete the Timken, or just buy both and not use the one in the Fel-Pro kit or what.

Really why i’m posting is that if this was 30 years ago, changing the water pump would wholly make sense. The one in there is for sure high mileage. Reading Rick C.’s problems in this thread scares the bejesus out of me and kinda makes me want to leave well enough alone. If i do get a new water pump and do it through Rock Auto, it would be:
AC Delco 252600
unless someone advises otherwise.

Not fond of having to go back in there in a few years to do a water pump, but less fond of replacing an original still-working pump with modern junk.

Thoughts on any of this?

Thanks.
Author:  ProCycle [ Mon Jun 13, 2022 2:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative fixes for small oil pan leak
I agree that a new water pump could be a crap shoot. On the other hand you know your current water pump has lived a long and full life. Either way you may be back in there replacing it in a few years.
Author:  Rick Covalt [ Tue Jun 14, 2022 7:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative fixes for small oil pan leak
I'm hoping whatever was going on with the water pumps with me has worked it's way through the system and is gone. I will say that my son's truck is still running the used one that I put on it though. Others have surely put on new pumps since then and I have not heard of any other issues.
Author:  volaredon [ Tue Jun 14, 2022 10:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative fixes for small oil pan leak
I had a bad run of reman ones about 15-20 years ago on several different applications, especially 318s and a couple of 300 Ford's I did water pumps on.
At that point I gave up on remans.
And I haven't had near the issues with them since.
Author:  Sonic Purity [ Tue Jun 14, 2022 10:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative fixes for small oil pan leak
Made the order today, with that newly manufactured AC Delco pump. Remembered that i’m going to be changing the thermostat + flushing the cooling system and hopefully going to the Evans water-free coolant Dan has used, liked, and recommended, so more than reasonable with everything taken into account to retire the long-lived original.

Thanks again for all the advice!
Author:  SlantSixDan [ Tue Jun 14, 2022 2:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative fixes for small oil pan leak
You will find the same indifferently-built, cheap-azzed Chinese* water pump-shaped trinket in the ACDelco box as you would in a box with any other brand on it.


*Or some other country known more for cheap labour than for quality auto parts
Author:  Sonic Purity [ Tue Jun 14, 2022 7:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative fixes for small oil pan leak
Quote:
You will find the same indifferently-built, cheap-azzed Chinese* water pump-shaped trinket in the ACDelco box as you would in a box with any other brand on it.


*Or some other country known more for cheap labour than for quality auto parts
Oh well, not the first time someone’s made $$ off my ignorance.

In my situation in terms of the van’s age and usage, what would you do?
  • Leave in the original 80+k working water pump until it actually fails?
  • Replace with NOS?
  • Replace with something else?
I’ve made my bed and will probably lie on it, but [if… this board software doesn’t support strikethrough text?!] when the AC Delco-branded genero-trash part lets me down, i’d like to know my next least-worst option.

Thanks.
Author:  DadTruck [ Tue Jun 14, 2022 7:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative fixes for small oil pan leak
Let me say this about that:
* it is some what hilarious that folks think that low cost countries equate to low quality, but somehow that equation does not compute with complex devices like smart tv and lap tops and cell phones.
* my experience getting parts from low cost countries is that having a brand name like: AC Delco or Toshiba or Buick or Gates associated to the product is assurance that there is a strong presence of quality in the manufacturing plan.
* it is still buyer-be-ware when it comes to recognizable names. Brands such as: Bell and Howel, Schwinn, have been bought out as name only entities and have no connection to the original manufacture’s.
* personally I am tickled to no end when I see folks preferring NOS components with no realization of how bad components and complex assemblies were back in the day. The longevity of car motors today is better due to improvements in lubrication and also dimensional and process controls. I lived in the era of manufacturing in the 70’s and 80’s, just because it is NOS, that does not mean it is correct. From my experience, I prefer modern: cnc manufacturing, cmm inspection and automated manufacturing and assembly. And that is what one gets with todays ‘low cost country manufacturing’. But again, I look for that known and still viable brand name that is associated to the product.
* By the way, I put new water pumps on the last three slants that I have built, have not had a problem with any of them. Installed current production bearings, gaskets, starters, alternators, belts and hoses.
The Apocalypse has not occurred.
Author:  SlantSixDan [ Wed Jun 15, 2022 3:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative fixes for small oil pan leak
Quote:
* it is some what hilarious that folks think that low cost countries equate to low quality, but somehow that equation does not compute with complex devices like smart tv and lap tops and cell phones
…which are made under constant first-world supervision backed up by first-world quality control, and extremely stiff penalties for any deviation from specifications. None of that applies to the likes of Slant-6 water pumps or Slant-6 fuel pumps.
Quote:
my experience getting parts from low cost countries is that having a brand name like: AC Delco or Toshiba or Buick or Gates associated to the product is assurance that there is a strong presence of quality in the manufacturing plan.
Here y'go.
Quote:
it is still buyer-be-ware when it comes to recognizable names. Brands such as: Bell and Howel, Schwinn, have been bought out as name only entities and have no connection to the original manufacture’s
Kind of like…ACDelco slapping their name on a part they didn't build or supervise.
Quote:
The longevity of car motors today is better due to improvements in lubrication and also dimensional and process controls.
That's absolutely right…and not relevant to replacement parts for cars that statistically no longer exist. There are no automaker quality requirements to comply with (and penalties to avoid) for whoever makes a Slant-6 water pump; the overwhelming criterion is low price. And we don't get what we don't pay for. :-(

(I don't have to guess at any of this; I worked in the industry for enough years, recently enough, to have experienced it from the front seat.)
Author:  SlantSixDan [ Wed Jun 15, 2022 3:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative fixes for small oil pan leak
Quote:
In my situation in terms of the van’s age and usage, what would you do?
[*]Leave in the original 80+k working water pump until it actually fails?
Probably, yes, and not worry about it. A Slant-6 water pump is easy to change. This isn't like a more modern car with the buried water pump driven off the timing belt.
Quote:
[*]Replace with NOS?
Different risk there. The N in NOS stands for "New" (never installed), but the O stands for "Old" (been sitting around for decades). Stuff can degrade from non-use, especially under less-than-optimal storage conditions. That said, I never actually saw any such age-related degradation making problems with a NOS reputable-brand water pump on a Slant-6, and I bought/used/sold quite a few of them.
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