Quote:
Quote:
If your thermostat stays constantly open, then the radiator do not have time to cool down the "water".
AAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!Won't this myth EVER die?
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| high speed heat up https://www.slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18804 |
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| Author: | SlantSixDan [ Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:50 am ] |
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Quote: at least half of the stuff we had in stock was the house brand ethelyne glycol.
It's all ethylene glycol (except the "low toxicity" stuff, which is propylene glycol). The differences are in the anticorrosion chemistry.Quote: whenever anyone asked for Dexcool, I always reccomended the "all makes, all models" stuff because I'd heard of Dexcool's nasty reputation. Would you reccomend this substitution?
Probably a good idea as a complete flush-and-replace. Probably up to the fates what happens if you mix Dex-Cool with anything else.
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| Author: | 440_Magnum [ Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:03 am ] |
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Quote: Quote: Quote: I can also report that my experiment with G-05 (a HOAT coolant recommended for Fords and modern Mopars) in my rebuilt 440 is looking really, really good so far.
That is great to know, especially since old-fashioned green stuff (silicate coolant) is getting hard to find.OAT- Organic Acid Technology (no silicates, no phosphates, nitrites depend on the particular blend) HOAT- Hybrid Organic Acid Technology (some silicates, some nitrites for cavitation protection) G-05- proprietary form of OAT made by Zerex and sold OEM by Ford and Chrysler. The "G" is for 'Glysantin,' an additve package made by BASF in Europe. Conventional- Silicone-silicate inhibitor package. "Conventional with supplemental corrosion additive" -usually means with an extra slug of nitrites, which prevent micro-boiling and cavitation damage which will eat holes into the cylinders of wet-sleeve diesel engines. Don't know about Canada, but you can no longer by "conventional green" versions of Prestone or Peak in the US, except for a few lines for heavy duty diesels which most parts stores don't stock. And its getting worse, because the heavy diesel manufacturers are all going HOAT (Mercedes/Detroit Diesel, Cummins) or OAT (Caterpillar) in their new engines. What you CAN buy is Zerex in conventional, plus all sorts of house-brand coolants (Napa, O'Reilly, and Pep Boys are ones I've checked) that are still conventional silicone-silicate and are made by the parent company of Peak (Old World Industries). What Prestone and Peak both sell as "universal" coolants are not the same as the green coolant of yesterday. They are suspiciously quiet about the exact chemistry, but when I did a lot of digging around, looking at MSDS, etc. for antifreezes about a year ago, I concluded that they are basically OAT corrosion inhibitor packages with some things thrown in to (maybe?) patch up the gaping deficiencies of DexCool (the fact that it eats up copper/brass/bronze parts like mad, for example). I did try one fill of Peak's universal coolant in my '73 Satellite (mistakenly thinking it was still conventional), and took it out within a couple of months because a whole slew of pinholes opened up in the top radiator tank's solder joints. Now it IS an old and many-times-repaired tank, so it COULD be that my radiator shop used crappy solder.... but it didn't do that with conventional green coolant! Of all the major coolant makers, Zerex is by far the most honest about producing lines of coolant for particular needs, rather than trying to be "universal." While Prestone and Peak's advertizing tries to make you think "choosing a coolant is SOOOOO complicated I am better off with a Universal brand," Zerex says "Look, there are really only 3 choices and here they are). They are very up front about OAT (DexCool) not being good for older cars with copper in the cooling system, and an article written by a Zerex engineer claims that HOAT (in particular their G-05) is the best new coolant for old vehicles. Ford and Chrysler went with HOAT because in their testing OAT coolant ate bronze impellers off waterpumps, and Zerex features (or at least did at one time) a picture from that testing on their G-05 bottle. |
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| Author: | Bren67Cuda904 [ Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:22 am ] |
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If your "180 thermo" is faulty and not close when it should, you will get a constant waterflow in the engine and raising temperature. I don't see how this is possable. Can someone expain this. This seems like a false statment. |
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| Author: | KBB_of_TMC [ Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | radiator cap |
just my $0.02 - I've noted that often my (usually Stant brand) radiator caps seem to go bad after even just 1 really good overheating session - after that, they don't seem to hold pressure properly, even though they look OK. |
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| Author: | skraecken [ Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:12 am ] |
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If your thermostat stays constantly open, then the radiator do not have time to cool down the "water". |
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| Author: | 440_Magnum [ Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Quote: If your thermostat stays constantly open, then the radiator do not have time to cool down the "water".
AAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!Won't this myth EVER die? |
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| Author: | skraecken [ Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:23 am ] |
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Quote: AAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!
Are you sure?Won't this myth EVER die? Cause I am! We are not talking about a car cruising slowly. |
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| Author: | SlantSixDan [ Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:27 am ] |
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Quote: Quote: If your thermostat stays constantly open, then the radiator do not have time to cool down the "water".
AAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!Won't this myth EVER die?
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| Author: | 440_Magnum [ Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:39 am ] |
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Quote: Quote: AAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!
Are you sure?Won't this myth EVER die? Cause I am! We are not talking about a car cruising slowly. It is true that some engines develop strange overheating problems with water is pumped through them too fast, but it has NOTHING to do with the water "not staying in the radiator long enough to cool down." What happens is that some engines develop stagnant flow patterns internally at high flow rates- in other words you get pockets of NO flow (or just isolated circular flow) and the water in those areas boils while other pockets run too cool. Ideally, you want the water to flow as fast as possible through the radiator and engine and undergo just a *tiny* temperature change so that the engine block is a uniform temperature. The worst situation would be very slow flow through the radiator and returning freezing cold water to the engine because then there'd be a huge temperature gradient in the engine. Remember that heat is NOT the same as "temperature." You want to move HEAT out of the engine, and the same amount of heat energy flows out of an engine if you pump 100,000 liters of water an hour through it and only cool them .001 degree celsius through the radiator as flows if you pump 1 liter of water per hour and cool it 100 degrees celsius. Its better for the engine to circulate the 100,000 liters and only have a .001 degree temperature gradient from coolant return to coolant outlet. |
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| Author: | AnotherSix [ Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:58 am ] |
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Wow! I think the important points have been covered, I only have a little to add. I am in southern California and my idea of a cooling system that works does not include turning off the AC in traffic or uphill when it's 100+ out with 80% humidity. Do check the water flow / collapsing lower hose issue. Get a overflow tank if you do not have one, it really makes a difference. A shroud should be a standard upgrade if you do not have one. It is mostly for low speed but will solve any odd high speed airflow issues, like a strong tail or crosswind that screws up airflow (yes we get hot winds down here). I would run a 180 thermo, but after 200 degrees even a 195 should be all the way open. I have gone around and around about the two types of caps in the past (with myself). On two of my other cars, v-6 and v-8, I settled on the spring loaded valve because the rear cylinders and chambers do run hotter and heat up faster than the rest of the engine and I want to keep any local bubbling to a minimum. The v-6 needs to stay colder than normal (160-175) for max performance. The way the water is routed in a Slant I do not see how this could be a problem. If you have a recovery tank and a full radiator, once it gets hot, either type of cap will have the poppet closed. Regardless of what any year came with, you just have to decide what you want to give and get for your choice. I have used redline water wetter and it helps. Use distilled water only, and add a little more water wetter every few months to keep up the corrosion protection. 25% coolant with the water wetter is a good idea. In the end I suspect it is really going to be the radiator is at it's limit. Follow the previous advice and get a 3 row with the max number of fins you find. Do all of this and you will have a bullet-proof system that you can drive thru Hell and back(or southern California)! P.S. Is your engine vacuum at speed dropping to the point that you are losing some or all of your vacuum advance? |
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| Author: | skraecken [ Thu Jul 27, 2006 11:06 am ] |
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If my english had been better, I would have continued. But! Everybody has a right to an opinion. I accept yours. And I hope nobody has been offended, when I expressed mine. |
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| Author: | AnotherSix [ Thu Jul 27, 2006 12:12 pm ] |
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I sort of missed some of the last posts about the open thermostat and "time to cool" in the radiator. Is there a mix up between open thermostat and NO thermostat. Some engines will have pump cavitation and cooling problems if there is not some restriction to give a little backpressure to the pump. This is the problem, not time in the radiator. It is a flowing system and the greater the differential in temperature between the water and the air flowing thru the radiator, the faster heat will be moved. If you are trying to leave water in the radiator longer trying cool it more, you are also leaving water in the engine longer that is getting heated more. More heat in the engine equals hotter chambers which in turn equals a less controlled burn, which means more wasted energy in the form of more HEAT. You are now on a slippery slope. If you could shut the engine off and keep the fan running this will work, but thats not what's being discussed. Race cars that run restrictors use one that gives the right temp. range for the current conditions. It also eliminates a failure point and the temp. cycling that happens with a thermostat when you have extra cooling capacity in your radiator. I have seen restrictors marketed with this false pretense, but they are a tuning and reliability modification. They are not a way to increase cooling capacity. |
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| Author: | 440_Magnum [ Thu Jul 27, 2006 3:17 pm ] |
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Quote: I sort of missed some of the last posts about the open thermostat and "time to cool" in the radiator. Is there a mix up between open thermostat and NO thermostat. Some engines will have pump cavitation and cooling problems if there is not some restriction to give a little backpressure to the pump. This is the problem, not time in the radiator.
Pump cavitation at high speed certainly can be a problem, along with abnormal flow patterns that I mentioned. In the case of cavitation, what happens is that the flow rate doesn't get "too fast," it actually drops back to nearly zero even though the water pump is spinning at high rpm. Cavitation gets its name from the fact that a "cavity" (vacuum bubble) forms in the water, in this case around the impeller vanes. When the cavitation gets severe enough, most of the impeller is just spinning in a vacuum and not pumping water at all. One very good way to address that problem is with a redesigned water pump impeller. I'm not sure there's one available for the slant, but Edelbrock makes a nice curved-vane impeller water pump for big block Mopars. And Skraecken- I'm not offended, sorry if I came off that way. But let's be clear- what happens in a radiator isn't subject to opinion, there is fact and there is myth. I do get frustrated when the old myth gets quoted as fact because it doesn't really help anyone SOLVE a cooling problem. "Not enough time to cool the water in the radiator" is not, was not, cannot be, and never has been a problem on any engine that exists in any universe that follows the same laws of physics as our universe. Slowing the water down DOES sometimes cure the problem, but not for the reason people think! |
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| Author: | AnotherSix [ Thu Jul 27, 2006 5:55 pm ] |
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440_magnum, I share your "opinion" about fact and fiction. Some things just don't hold water. I was not ignoring what you said earlier about strange flow patterns at high rates, in fact I believe a fast flow, within reason, works best and helps strip off the layer of tiny bubbles that form on the insides of the water jackets. If you put water in a pan and heat it you can see the bubbles form long before the water gets to the boiling point. About cavitation, I have seen damage in pumps that looks like corrosion pitting, but no corrosion. It is caused by the vacuum bubble collapsing and the water hitting the metal so hard it strips away some of it. I think the problem with most water pumps is that they were made to be simple, cheap and good enough to work most of the time at low rpm. A nice impeller would be great. I have used flow cooler disks on other engines but am not sure if they would fit on the back of a slant impeller. Well, it would fit on the impeller but might hit the block. I'll check this out in a few weeks. It's not as nice as a high tech impeller but helps allot and is cheap and easy. |
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| Author: | 440_Magnum [ Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:26 am ] |
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Oops, double posted. See next post. |
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