Slant Six Forum :: Stall vs. Boost

Quote:

"Bill, I know very well who you are and what you used to do."

Well, you're one up on me; because of your fascination with pseudonyms, I dont even know your name. What is it? You know mine.

"I have seen your inane rants on Classracer for years."

If I ever posted anything on "Classracer" that is, in your opinion, "inane," perhaps you'd like to copy and paste it into a message on this board. so everybody can make his own decision as to who is "inane" and who is not. Additionally, if you're going to accuse someone of writing "inane" comments, you need to be able to back up what you say, or risk being branded an individual who criticizes without good cause. People don't pay much attention to keyboard cowboys who practice that kind of stuff... especially, nameless ones.

I'd love to know what I wrote that sounded "inane" to you.

"I am merely trying to help you avoid going down a road that will cost you a lot of time and money before you arrive at the idea you need to do something different. I have worked with turbo cars before, and they are very hard to stage, get boosted, cut a decent reaction time, and be consistant off a foot brake, especially if the car is fast. WOT is simply out of the question."

And, I have read and listened to everything you have contributed to this thread and tried to understand what you meant. I still have a lot of trouble trying to visualize the scenario you describe wherein a torque converter that is being stalled at 3,000 rpm with a 2-step, would have any less tendency to "push" (overcome the brakes) than that same car/engine/brake-system, that is also stalling at 3,000 rpm with all the cylinders firing. The same amount of torque is going through the converter in both cases, or the stall speed would be lower/higher, given that it is the same converter...

I have asked you to explain how this is possible, but you make no attempt. Maybe because you can't. I don't think anybody can; it's simple physics... same power/same stall speed.

"You are more than welcome to do it any way you can and prove me wrong. My feelings won't be hurt."

I am not trying to prove ANYBODY "wrong," and certainly not out to hurt anybody's feelings; especially folks like you, who are just trying to help me "git-r-dun"!!!

"There are many ways to land an airplane too, but only one is survivable for passengers and plane both."

Well, I think there are a variety of ways to do this, but, the easiest way would probably be a trans-brake. That's probably how this will end up.$$$$$$$$$$

Bill, you have certainly had some good times at races in the past, but also keep in mind, that even in your 57 years of being involved with it, nothing you have ever done has prepared you for a turbo car. There is absolutely nothing in common to them that you have experienced before. Its like comparing an 8-track tape to a CD. While this car might not be as fast as others you have previously raced, everything from the engine build to car and suspension setup to staging the car is 180Â° from anything you have done before, and your earlier experiences don't even apply to this application. So basically, you are starting from scratch. Sure you can still go out and have fun, and im sure the costs of things have increased from the 1970's also, but the technology is completely different as well, and thats what you need to understand. Everyone here is wanting to see you go out and go fast and meet your goals that you have set for this project. But its going to be more of a challenge than you are realizing.

Bill, a converter stalls at a certain RPM relative to engine torque, car weight, and brake holding power. A 2 step/ limiter randomly drops cylinders which intermittently kills engine torque.

An engine at stall speed with no limiter will try to keep revving up at WOT and will overpower the brakes and or break something.

A limiter will take away enough torque to allow the brakes to hold, or keep the car from eating parts if you have a trans brake.

Thanks, Tom;

I'll look into it. I aleady have a "conventional" boost controller that allows full boost before the waste gate begins to open. Is this one different?

Bill there's a bunch of info on 2 steps and transbrakes on the turbo forums it may be time you start trolling them sites you should probably get used to them anywise once you start tuning that beast there's some great info on that site and some ever knowledgeable individuals

I don't think you'd see enough "cool air" to notice any difference. I've seen a lot of turbo cars on 2 steps. Doesn't seem to hurt tham at all.

Quote:

I don't think you'd see enough "cool air" to notice any difference. I've seen a lot of turbo cars on 2 steps. Doesn't seem to hurt tham at all.

If that turns out to be true in our case, you'll surely see one on our car!!!

Thanks, 'Zilla!

Author:	CNC-Dude [ Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:51 am ]
Post subject:
Bill, you have certainly had some good times at races in the past, but also keep in mind, that even in your 57 years of being involved with it, nothing you have ever done has prepared you for a turbo car. There is absolutely nothing in common to them that you have experienced before. Its like comparing an 8-track tape to a CD. While this car might not be as fast as others you have previously raced, everything from the engine build to car and suspension setup to staging the car is 180Â° from anything you have done before, and your earlier experiences don't even apply to this application. So basically, you are starting from scratch. Sure you can still go out and have fun, and im sure the costs of things have increased from the 1970's also, but the technology is completely different as well, and thats what you need to understand. Everyone here is wanting to see you go out and go fast and meet your goals that you have set for this project. But its going to be more of a challenge than you are realizing.

Author:	slantzilla [ Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:46 am ]
Post subject:
Bill, I know very well who you are and what you used to do. I have seen your inane rants on Classracer for years. I am merely trying to help you avoid going down a road that will cost you a lot of time and money before you arrive at the idea you need to do something different. I have worked with turbo cars before, and they are very hard to stage, get boosted, cut a decent reaction time, and be consistant off a foot brake, especially if the car is fast. WOT is simply out of the question. You are more than welcome to do it any way you can and prove me wrong. My feelings won't be hurt. There are many ways to land an airplane too, but only one is survivable for passengers and plane both.

Author:	billdedman [ Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:14 pm ]
Post subject:
DOUBLE POST; SORRY...

Author:	billdedman [ Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:15 pm ]
Post subject:
Quote: Quote: "Bill, I know very well who you are and what you used to do." Well, you're one up on me; because of your fascination with pseudonyms, I dont even know your name. What is it? You know mine. "I have seen your inane rants on Classracer for years." If I ever posted anything on "Classracer" that is, in your opinion, "inane," perhaps you'd like to copy and paste it into a message on this board. so everybody can make his own decision as to who is "inane" and who is not. Additionally, if you're going to accuse someone of writing "inane" comments, you need to be able to back up what you say, or risk being branded an individual who criticizes without good cause. People don't pay much attention to keyboard cowboys who practice that kind of stuff... especially, nameless ones. I'd love to know what I wrote that sounded "inane" to you. "I am merely trying to help you avoid going down a road that will cost you a lot of time and money before you arrive at the idea you need to do something different. I have worked with turbo cars before, and they are very hard to stage, get boosted, cut a decent reaction time, and be consistant off a foot brake, especially if the car is fast. WOT is simply out of the question." And, I have read and listened to everything you have contributed to this thread and tried to understand what you meant. I still have a lot of trouble trying to visualize the scenario you describe wherein a torque converter that is being stalled at 3,000 rpm with a 2-step, would have any less tendency to "push" (overcome the brakes) than that same car/engine/brake-system, that is also stalling at 3,000 rpm with all the cylinders firing. The same amount of torque is going through the converter in both cases, or the stall speed would be lower/higher, given that it is the same converter... I have asked you to explain how this is possible, but you make no attempt. Maybe because you can't. I don't think anybody can; it's simple physics... same power/same stall speed. "You are more than welcome to do it any way you can and prove me wrong. My feelings won't be hurt." I am not trying to prove ANYBODY "wrong," and certainly not out to hurt anybody's* feelings; especially folks like you, who are just trying to help me "git-r-dun"!!!* "There are many ways to land an airplane too, but only one is survivable for passengers and plane both." Well, I think there are a variety of ways to do this, but, the easiest way would probably be a trans-brake. That's probably how this will end up.$$$$$$$$$$

Author:	billdedman [ Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:42 pm ]
Post subject:
Quote: Bill, you have certainly had some good times at races in the past, but also keep in mind, that even in your 57 years of being involved with it, nothing you have ever done has prepared you for a turbo car. There is absolutely nothing in common to them that you have experienced before. Its like comparing an 8-track tape to a CD. While this car might not be as fast as others you have previously raced, everything from the engine build to car and suspension setup to staging the car is 180Â° from anything you have done before, and your earlier experiences don't even apply to this application. So basically, you are starting from scratch. Sure you can still go out and have fun, and im sure the costs of things have increased from the 1970's also, but the technology is completely different as well, and thats what you need to understand. Everyone here is wanting to see you go out and go fast and meet your goals that you have set for this project. But its going to be more of a challenge than you are realizing. Thanks for that. It is well-taken. I fully realize that I am a "babe-in-the-woods" here, never having had a slant six car before, or any kind of turbocharged car at all. I do have a '72 Valiant with a supercharged (Vortech-centrifugal) 360 Magnum/904, that I have been fooling around with for a couple of years, but I don't think there's much carryover from that engine to a slant-six turbo. Too many differences... I have had a lot of help from some experienced turbo slant six guys in selecting the parts, (cam grind, and induction-system,) particularly from Tom Wolfe (Shaker223.) He has saved me tons of money and kept me from gong down the wrong path on more than one occasion. Kudos to Tom.. Our engine is a close copy of his, and should run similarly, IF we can get the thing tuned somewhere in the ballpark. Tom built the blow-thru, 4150 Holley double-pumper carburetor for us (identical mdifications to his,) and has helped us with a whole variety of decisions regarding how to tune the engine, etc. If this thing runs ANYTHING like his car, it will be the fastest car I have ever been involved with. If it doesn't SHAME ON US!!! Ryan Peterson's turbo'd '66 Valiant has ben a constant source of inspiration; just watched his Youtube video for the 800th time... 127 MPH!!! Incredible! I really DO apppreciate all the help from people with experience. If I seem argumentative, it's only because I am a hard-headed old fool who thinks logic is the only way... and, maybe, sometimes it's not. We're working on wiring now, and have the fuel system finished and operational. Shouldn't take TOO much longer... I hope. Been workin' on this turkey for 3 years, now... That should be long enough! Thanks again for all the help! Bill, in Conway, Arkansas

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Stall vs. Boost https://www.slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=49085	Page 4 of 5

Author:	Shaker223 [ Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:53 am ]
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Just use one of these. http://www.ams1000.com/index.php?option ... &Itemid=65

Author:	billdedman [ Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:59 am ]
Post subject:
Thanks, Tom; I'll look into it. I aleady have a "conventional" boost controller that allows full boost before the waste gate begins to open. Is this different?

Author:	slantzilla [ Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:29 pm ]
Post subject:
Bill, a converter stalls at a certain RPM relative to engine torque, car weight, and brake holding power. A 2 step/ limiter randomly drops cylinders which intermittently kills engine torque. An engine at stall speed with no limiter will try to keep revving up at WOT and will overpower the brakes and or break something. A limiter will take away enough torque to allow the brakes to hold, or keep the car from eating parts if you have a trans brake.

Author:	billdedman [ Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:13 pm ]
Post subject:
Quote: Bill, a converter stalls at a certain RPM relative to engine torque, car weight, and brake holding power. A 2 step/ limiter randomly drops cylinders which intermittently kills engine torque. An engine at stall speed with no limiter will try to keep revving up at WOT and will overpower the brakes and or break something. A limiter will take away enough torque to allow the brakes to hold, or keep the car from eating parts if you have a trans brake. Robert, or whatever your name is, you were good until you got to "car weight." The same converter with the same engine and state of tune, will stall (full throttle) at the same RPM in ANY car, regardless of the car's weight. How do you think a hydraulic mechanism such as a torque converter could possibly know what kind (how heavy) of a car it was in, before it has even moved it (remember; it's at stall)???? Brake holding power is, of course, a critical function but for the sake of this discussion, it was assumed that the brakes would always hold 100-percent; otherwise it's impossible to even have a discussion; the car rolls through the lights and no arguments are possible, I can't disagree with anything else you said; it's all true. I go along with all of that 100-percent. However, that still doesn't tell me what happpens to the stall speed when using a 2-step, the cool air from the cylinders that mis-fired due to the rev limiter, hits the turbo exhaust impeller. Don't you agree that, since HEAT is what drives that impeller, making boost and power (and more stall speed,) the LACK of that heat will slow it down and I'll lose boost? THAT is what bothers me. What do you think about that? Bill. in Conway, Arkansas

Author:	billdedman [ Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:14 pm ]
Post subject:
Quote: Thanks, Tom; I'll look into it. I aleady have a "conventional" boost controller that allows full boost before the waste gate begins to open. Is this one different?

Author:	slantzilla [ Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:10 pm ]
Post subject:
I don't think you'd see enough "cool air" to notice any difference. I've seen a lot of turbo cars on 2 steps. Doesn't seem to hurt tham at all.

Author:	Turbo Toad [ Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:13 pm ]
Post subject:
Bill there's a bunch of info on 2 steps and transbrakes on the turbo forums it may be time you start trolling them sites you should probably get used to them anywise once you start tuning that beast there's some great info on that site and some ever knowledgeable individuals

Author:	billdedman [ Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:58 pm ]
Post subject:
Quote: Bill there's a bunch of info on 2 steps and transbrakes on the turbo forums it may be time you start trolling them sites you should probably get used to them anywise once you start tuning that beast there's some great info on that site and some ever knowledgeable individuals Good advice3; I'll take it, Aaron! Thanks. Oh; can you give me a link?

Author:	billdedman [ Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:01 pm ]
Post subject:
Quote: I don't think you'd see enough "cool air" to notice any difference. I've seen a lot of turbo cars on 2 steps. Doesn't seem to hurt tham at all. I that turns out to be true in our case, you'll surely see one on our car!!! Thanks, 'Zilla!

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Author:	billdedman [ Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:46 pm ]
Post subject:
Quote: Quote: I don't think you'd see enough "cool air" to notice any difference. I've seen a lot of turbo cars on 2 steps. Doesn't seem to hurt tham at all. If that turns out to be true in our case, you'll surely see one on our car!!! Thanks, 'Zilla!