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PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:54 am 
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Supercharged
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Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:00 pm
Posts: 3035
Location: kankakee IL
Car Model: 80 volare, 78 fury 2 dr, 85 D150
Thanks all for input and info. It is much appreciated.

I have the block and crank back, head is in machine shop.
I had taken them new freeze plugs (brass) and cam bearings, came back with them installed, but not the ones I took them. I took them brass, they installed steel. Gave them to the co owner, who was gone the day I picked up. Main owner loaded me up, I asked about freeze plugs (should have kept them here and put them in myself) Will (main owner) said "Well I didn't see them, you didn't give them to me".....No, I didn't. I gave them to his right hand man, Neil/ who was absent the day I picked up the block and crank. Otherwise everything looks great.

I also now have another stock, fresh, ready to run peanut head, besides. The day after I picked up my block and head and dropped off my partly ported head and all the parts I want put on, (OS valves, 318 springs and keepers, both positive and conventional type valve seals,etc) I was browsing CL and ran across an ad for a freshly done (30 years ago!) slant head for a too good to pass up price. I went after it, got it and took a few valves out to see what it was about. All new brass guides, fresh as if it were done yesterday, had been wrapped in plastic til the morning that I went after it, seller unwrapped it to see if it was as he remembered, he used to be a charter boat capt on Lake Michigan, ran 2 charter bots each powered by twin slants. he said something about unleaded being hard on his exhaust valves and always had a fresh done up head ready.... I'm not sure all the valves are as new as he claimed, (pitting on some of the valve faces, but that could be from storage I guess..... in any case they are in good shape, plenty of valve margin, etc. Definitely looks uncut, looks like car/truck head, because of the air pump passage on far back of head....this one definitely has the holes in each exh chamber for the air injection. Seller said he went to a junkyard at one time and bought a couple of truck heads to be done up as his spares and he swapped them in and out as needed "musical chairs" style, car heads, truck heads, marine heads, peanut plug heads, drool tube heads, didn't matter to him, as long as the boats could run. I did go thru the box of misc hardware that came with the head, threw away the exhaust valve rotators and shorter springs that would go with the rotators and kept the rest of what was in there. more good used valves, springs, keepers, drool tubes, complete set of adjustable rockers, etc.
One of the heads that I partially ported and took to the machine shop for completion, had the port at the back of the manifold mount face for this, but didn't have the holes in the individual exhaust bowls like this one does.... weird.

I'll keep this one as a backup, might disanantle and tempt fate (oopsing the fresh machine work) and do a little port cleanup eventually and CC it, send it for a shave. but not at the moment. gonna rewrap it and put it on the shelf, since it is a fresh head. might wind up on the kid's truck.

I also have the rods and (mounted) pistons, the cam back from Oregon, the damper back from Damper Dudes. almost everything I need is here.
except that I am missing most of the bolts for things like oil pan, valve cover, water pump, fuel pump, oil pump, and such. Im thinking of buying a stainless bolt kit for all of that from Feebay "all in one" kit.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:55 pm 
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Supercharged
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Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:00 pm
Posts: 3035
Location: kankakee IL
Car Model: 80 volare, 78 fury 2 dr, 85 D150
ok... got my stainless bolt kit... all 304 grade. including manifold studs and intake to exhaust manifold bolts but no "internal engine" bolts included. I find myself 3 head bolts and the cam sprocket bolt and washer short, of having all the internal engine bolts I need. I have 2 peanut heads at machine shop, plus the new valves, 318 springs and retainers, and 2 sets of rocker arm hardware. waiting to get an hour or 2 where my son has time to "come by" and help me set that heavy forged crank in place so I can Plastigauge everything, (without dropping it on my foot)/ and start getting rods and pistons in so I can measure "in the hole at TDC" so I can tell the machine shop how much of a shave to give the head.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:05 pm 
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Car Model: 68 Valiant
I will be at my shop next Thursday Don. If you need bolts text me a list and I'll grab them for you.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 8:31 pm 
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Supercharged
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Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:00 pm
Posts: 3035
Location: kankakee IL
Car Model: 80 volare, 78 fury 2 dr, 85 D150
ok... it's going together, finally got good set of mains, rod bearings are same brand from a different source, came in TRW boxes but have F-M logo stamped on back side... "bad" ones had somebody else's logo stamped in the backside. got crank, pistons and rods in..... gotta bring my puller home to get the old crank sprocket off... has a little interference fit, not gonna pound on it with it mounted.... not wanting to buy set of mains #3, haha.....

I checked machine shop work the "cheater's" way... long feeler gauge, while sliding (upside down) piston and rod in from the top.... 0.002 was a go, 0.004" was a no-go. all main and rod bearing clearances came out ~1-1/2 to 2-thou, as measured by plastigage. piston to bore and rod/main clearances all right around 2-thou.... clearances at middle to (slightly) high side of allowable, throughout. sure spins over easy, with crank socket......
ring end gap top ring at low end of allowable.... 12-to 14-thou on top ring, 16-20 on middle ring.... in the mid to high 0.020's for each rail on oil ring. pretty consistent throughout.
that one is a bit snug-ger than I thought it might be.... but in spec, as is.
was struggling a bit, rolling engine over on stand.... as it gained parts, it started flopping over "upside down" on its own easier and getting harder to flip it right side up as I went.... shouldn't have sprayed the shank where the tube goes thru the head of stand with fluid film, I guess..... now to dig my mag base dial indicator out, get TDC, and measure the "in the hole" amount, so the machine shop can finish the head work.......
need the O ring for the oil pump cover and the relief valve cap gasket... Auto Zone said "only 1 left in system"....relief cap gasket is a little more available, but not much. ones in my new-but-ancient Melling oil pump rebuild kit are hard and brittle-- almost petrified..... and then I'm looking at my reciept (ordered a couple of other small parts too) and he forgot to get me that oil pump cover O ring.... stopped by O'Wrongleys as it is on my way home, got that coming now.... funny how nobody knows what Plastigage is used for, these days.... at least they know they have it.... but have had 2 parts store employees now, at 2 different stores, say "I was wondering what that was used for".....


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:25 pm 
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Supercharged
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Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:00 pm
Posts: 3035
Location: kankakee IL
Car Model: 80 volare, 78 fury 2 dr, 85 D150
well crank, pistons, rods are in... All I have here to measure deck height with, is a dial caliper. So I put my dial indicator on it, found TDC, and measured off the edge of the deck, and I come up with still 0.180" in the hole, at TDC. Pretty consistent front to back. I was hoping to be down to ~.140-150 max// after, and with the deck shave, that I had asked for.
the engine was a pile of parts when I first got it, with no pistons/rods included. so, no way to tell where it was before.
They did take off enough to wipe out the stamped numbers on the deck, by the #1 cylinder. That's all I know for sure. Originally, they took off a whole 0.006", I had to remind them that I wanted at least 0.030 off.... supposedly, they put it back in the mill and took off "the rest of" 30-thou as I had asked for//// but I wasn't there, to see it actually being done. But I was "told" that they did so. so far, the rest of their machine work is right where they said it was. and work I have had done there on other jobs, was right where it was supposed to be.

But at this point, it is where it is/ and I don't feel like pulling it back apart, and hauling it back for a deeper shave. so, I am gonna have them work the head, to get it where I want it to be. I'm thinking I want it at ~8.7-8.8:1. I don't have any feedback on the head CCs yet, but anyone want to venture a guess, on how much to have the head milled to get there?

I have.... 20-0ver block
stock type Silvolite flat top pistons
TDC is 0.180" in the hole
Aussie HG
Oregon 819 cam, 36* ABDC intake close
casting #447 head, will have O/S SI valves in it.... 1.44/1.70"
NOS Mopar rods

so what's "best 'rough' guess" at the moment, for a number that I will need to have shaved from the head to get the CR to where it will need to be?
I did ask them to CC the head when they get it all done and back together. before they do the shave.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:27 pm 
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Supercharged

Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 6:48 pm
Posts: 3840
Location: Indianapolis
Car Model:
Quote:
and I come up with still 0.180" in the hole, at TDC.
I found that the stock style .030 OS Silvolite pistons that I used in the 83 D150 had the piston compression height (the distance from the top of the piston to the center of the piston pin) reduced from the stock piston, what that does is drop the piston in the cylinder bore. Back then I called the Silvolite / KB tech line and asked about that. The answer I got was that adjustment is for the person that is installing OS pistons and wants to maintain the stock compression ratio. The additional .020 or .030 on the diameter adds swept volume which with everything else being equal would increase compression, so the piston compression height is adjusted to compensate for that.

concerning how much to cut,, you are real close to getting it done the right way, have the shop cc a chamber and use an on line calculator and then tell the shop how much to cut, you will nail it.

here is one from KB that will give you both static and dynamic compression

https://uempistons.com/p-27-compression ... lator.html

here is one with better graphics and instructions, static compression only

https://www.rbracing-rsr.com/compstaticcalc.html

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PostPosted: Sun May 23, 2021 1:29 pm 
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Supercharged
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Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:00 pm
Posts: 3035
Location: kankakee IL
Car Model: 80 volare, 78 fury 2 dr, 85 D150
Well the 2 percenters might just win out.
98% chance I wasn't planning on downgrading to a 904 behind my fresh engine.
As it turns out I am currently in GA combined a vacation with a trip to pick up my rust free bed sides. That I won on eBay.
I got there and the guy shows me a tailgate (which I need) and some NICE inner fender wells. Well then we start pulling off the pile, and he tells me his wife has been on him to clean up some of the stash of parts. So he tells me "all or nothing" a pile of 4 fenders 4 doors 2 core supports, a cross bed tool box and more for probably cheaper than scrap price. So Iam coming home with a larger pile than I bargained for.
And what happens to be among the pile? You got it, a /6 904 and converter. All or nothing..... I haven't yet looked at the number on the trans as he let me park the trailer in his back 5 acres while we sight see around Savannah, I got a feeling it will be headed even higher by the time I come for it in a couple days. All 81-93 D/W sheet metal. Will have to rip it apart and see how bad it is once I get home..... But I still like the 727 better.....


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2021 4:44 pm 
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Supercharged
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Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:00 pm
Posts: 3035
Location: kankakee IL
Car Model: 80 volare, 78 fury 2 dr, 85 D150
finally got the head back yesterday. Had no idea going in, this would be a year long process getting the necessary machine work done. (9 months on the block/crank, 3 months on the head) I had left them instructions for the head, and every time I checked on progress and asked if they remembered "something" that I'd originally asked for, they acted all kinds of surprised like this was the 1st that they had heard I wanted "this" or "that" done. I dug up the page of hunted and pecked requests from my computer, and see that since they have had the head, and I've asked about progress along the way, everything I've asked for since I took them the head was on that list. Should have been no surprises.
I'm glad I did check up on them thru the process because of things like my requests for press in seats "at least" on the exhaust side. They had the VJ "all done" "ready for assembly" was told "seats are fine" the last time I saw it before assembly.... I asked where the new seats were, it didnt look like they had been put in yet, they hadn't been. They didnt seem happy they had to "go back" and redo the exhaust side.... a week before I was told "No problem, I think I even have seats here that will work for that head" when I called... then when I went by, and pointed it out, only THEN did they "check stock and tell me "they had to order them".... I dunno if they hoped Id forget about that part of it or not. The ports do look nice, they did a good job (it appears) finishing what I'd started there, taking it over from where i'd "chickened out" for fear of grinding thru....
and they did say, that they Magg'ed the head after the porting and cleaning up of the seats...... I hadn't asked for that but I'm glad they did.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2021 11:43 am 
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Supercharged
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Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:00 pm
Posts: 3035
Location: kankakee IL
Car Model: 80 volare, 78 fury 2 dr, 85 D150
Head is back in my hands, looks good so far.
I went to Indy, to someone's home garage from here on the forum, that has a flow bench at his disposal... he was nice enough to spend an afternoon with me, checking out this head on his flow bench. He was pretty impressed with the numbers it seemed. Thanks for doing this, John!!!!
I satisfied alot of curiosity that day.... and he did show me a couple of other heads he has had on the bench before to compare to... one on his own truck and one that he worked up for someone else.... That one blew this one away, down at low lifts// and equalled out pretty close to mine at higher lifts/// but that one was modified to 30* intake seat angles. Definitely interesting for sure.
sounds like it may have been worth the shavings and dust that were created, to port it out. even for a "worker bee", truck motor. on a HP "race" motor, the effects would be felt even more than I hope that this one will.
I got me a Proform dial indicator that sets in the lifter bore and directly measures lift right off the cam.... never was really sure of myself when I have gone and tried to degree in a cam...
"in the past" I've easily given up, lined up the dots and said "screw it".... degreeing a cam (or trying to) has always been quite confusing to me
also got a barette so I can try and CC this head and see if my chambers are where I thought Id be after the shave.... I've never CCd a head before, either.
gotta stop by the glass shop, and see what scraps of heavy lexan they may have laying around, that I can drill a hole into and cover the chambers with.
working on cleaning the garage so I got some room to work on this..... gotta straigthen the obstacle course so I at least have a straight path to the bench and room on the bench top work hahaa...

and since I know it will be asked.... on a 10" WC bench I have... (line 9 on sheet he gave me) hope that's the "right" line to be comparing// haha again..... lotsa numbers on those sheets to decipher.
We measured every 50-thou but I've only put the even-100-thou increments, except the last number. I can see where it got better and better and better to a point/ then just petered out, where it had given all it had.... but that's mostly at points higher than my cam will work the valves, anyhow. can really see the progression, when broken down into the 50-thou increments.
IN EX
0.100" 30 21.6
0.200" 59 43
0.300 81 61
0.400" 92 69
0.500" 97.1 71.5
0.550" 100.6 72.6
I know that on any other bench readings will vary, on a 28" model he calculated the hopeful readings these numbers equal to... alot bigger, for "bragging rights" I guess.
readings shown were slightly (3 cfm) lower than actual because of leakage on a fresh un broken in head....
Anyone have comparable numbers on a stock, un worked head? Mine is a #447 casting if it matters.
and seeing 2 other, different casting number, bare heads on the bench (both also /6) I can see where those heads would be physically lighter than mine, which will be more of a factor on a race motor where every ounce saved, counts. One was a drool tube head the other was a peanut head/ much newer than mine.
I know that the drool tube head and the peanut head with A I R provisions, that I have here are somewhat easier to "handle" than the one that I decided to go with for this motor as well... something I didn't think much of, when I started this mess....

and I apologize for how the table I tried to portray here shows up.... I had it all nice and spread out while I was hunting and pecking....... when I hit "Submit" the damn computer bunched it all together....


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2021 3:46 pm 
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Car Model: 65 Valiant 2Dr Post
That's pretty good numbers Don! My Jeffrey head flows @ 110 / 92 at 550 lift.

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