Today I got to look at a 1967 Valiant Signet 4 dr, 225, Holley 1920, A904...

It's in fairly decent daily driver shape....A buddy was going to give it to me for a fair deal, I told him I'd think about it as it's rainy and I don't have a place to tear a car down if needed. It has a couple of problems that I need a second opinion or someone more familiar with the 67-70 model year/ and someone more familiar with the A904...

first problem was easy, I spotted something boiling out of the dipstick tube...looks like the oil pan is full of oil and gasoline (the carb is in great shape and not flooding...so I suspect that a fuel pump diaphragm is to blame)...

Next problem is not so nice and I think has several causes causing one big problem...

The car had previously "shorted" according to my buddy and it burned up the ground cable and melted the ground terminal off the battery... He decided to replace all the cables( ground and positive/main starter cable), then replace the voltage regulator, alternator(single field prong), ignition switch, fuses, starter solenoid.

I think he wired something a bit wrong or there's still a short, and I don't have a 1967 wiring diagram to compare, but when you start the car, you have to pull the pos cable off the battery to get the starter to stop winding/engaging... but the car keeps running on the alternator until you use the key to turn it off.

Once you pull the cable though, the poor powertrain makes this nasty sound like the starter gear is grinding against something...the gear has disengaged and not jambed, but the tranny makes the noise in park and neutral only, it goes away when in gear...I pulled the pan and no 'chunks' or loose bolts fell out, and the flex plate bolts seemed to be snug...


Anybody have a diagram or reference so I can see where the ignition/starting system might have a 'problem' (the wiring in the engine compartment looked good and unburnt...)... I think the switch or the solenoid aren't quite right and isn't disengaging.

Secondly, anyone have a speculation as to the grinding/rocks in a can sound that isn't the starter...(I'm not fully up on pulling a 904 apart since I have preferences for the manual tranny...)

I have access to a good F-body 1979 A-904, and a mated cast crank 225 that I could slug in there if needed (at least it would have the better cam...).

Thanks for any thoughts,

-D.Idiot

Does he have the "start" and "run" wires switched ?

_________________
Yeah....Im the one who destroyed this rare, vintage automobile.....

Oh man, sounds like a nightmare. Poor little Valiant. If he shorted the car badly enough to actually burn the cable up ad melt the terminal off the battery then it was a serious problem.

First off, I would replace the starter relay. Who knows what has meltd together in there.

Second, I would pull apart the bulkhead connector to see how many of the terminals have melted together. The Mopar bulkheads have a bad habit of ovrheating and corroding anyway, and with a ajor meltdown like what happened in that Valiant who knows what wires got crossed.

If I remember correctly, the engine should die if you pull the positive battery cable off the battery since the charging circuit is broken. The fact that the engine still runs off the alternator indicates to me that there is a short between wires somewher ein the charging/starting system. This also relates to the grinding noise.

I suspect the grinding noise is the alternator freaking out under some kind of shorted load. The bearings on the alternator are probably worn to the point that the unusual load put on the alterntor makes it chatter, or perhaps some of the field windings in the alternator have been shorted or reversed causing thre to be reversed polarity in the fields when the battery cable is removed. I used to know a lady who oned a 63 Dart with a slant that I maintained for her. I converted her over to electronic ignition and a dual field alternator. Several month after I did the switch the car started making this horrible grinding noise while running. She took it to a mechanic who told her that the engine needed to be rebuilt. In a panic she called me and I took a lok at it and discovered that it was just the bearings on the altrnator which had gone out. I swapped out the alternator with a spare I had in the garage and it was as good as new.

If the transmission sifted fine ad you don't see any obviously problems laying in the pan then I would think it is okay. Torqueflites generally start to slip really bad before they make any grinding noises.

All in all, I don't envy your situation. I see two easy fixes: (1) new/replacement wiring harness, or (2) if you are up to the project, create your own wiring harnes but upgrade it using better connectors and relays.

The upside is that if you have a points style ignition, you can upgrade to 70s electronic ignition and the dual field alternator by carefully removing the alternator, VR, distributor, ballast resistor, and all associate wiring back to the bulkhead connector. Those two systems all come down to the brown and dark blue wires passing through the firewall. If you ar careful you can just remove the terminals form the bulkhead connector of the donor car and plug them into the one on the 67 and just re-wrap the wiring harness.

Any way you cut it you have some major wiring adventures ahead of you. I will dig through my shop manuals and try and find a 67 wiring diagram for you. I should have one in my Chiltons.

You mean a maybe it's the correct (typical) diagram?

_________________
Charrlie_S
65 Valiant 100 2dr post 170 turbo
66 Valiant Signet 170 nitrous
64 Valiant Signet
64 Valiant 4dr 170
64 Valiant 4dr 225

Box of rocks sound was in the bell housing/starter area, it goes away when you shift into gear and stays quiet...returns upon shifting to 'N' or 'P'... I hope it's not a main bearing that goes quiet when the tranny puts a load on things and snugs up the very wiped out tolerance in the bearing...

I'll have to see about Sandy's Run and Start swap, that sounds about right, and looks like a a possibilty when back tracing the circuits from a 1976 elec. manual.

THe starter relay is new, I will use a known good 'spare' next time I get next to the car, next week.


If I can get this back to 'normal' I'll probably take the car off his hands. I already have a MP EI harness ready to splice in with a module and a short throw governor distributor...as well as the late VR harness parts from the 1979 Aspen donor I just stripped out.


Thanks for the food for thought, will play with it more on Monday.

-D.Idiot

Yep! I just have a generic Haynes manual (not Chilton) for a-bodies anymore.

Actually, if you have a 76 diagram it should be the same, just with extra emissiosn stuff added. You can use the 76 and ignore the EGR timer and solenoid electronics.

Keep us posted, sounds like a fun project!

Many good-quality (Mitchell or equivalent) wiring diagrams are available for free, Here. Take a look at the '65 and '71 Valiant or Dart diagrams; both of those will be closer to a '67 setup than the mid-'70's diagrams will be (different number/type of connectors, many different circuits etc. starting in '72-'73).

I agree you will probably be looking at most or all of a complete engine wiring harness, potentially some repair to the in-dash harness, and likely some repair to the bulkhead connector. Sounds like pretty extensive wiring damage was done.

Grinding sound in bellhousing area, Park or Neutral only: Could be as simple as a failing flex plate or loose bolts...?

_________________
一期一会
Too many people who were born on third base actually believe they've hit a triple.

that web site rocks Dan!

thanks a lot!

sb

I've decided to drag it over to my other buddy's tow lot to look at it closer (more room, air ratchet if needed).

Thanks Dan, that's more closer than flipping through the 1976's extra circuits (and the 76 has that shunt amm gauge not the direct pre-75 amm gauge).

Will know more on monday,

-D.Idiot