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Fixed the water pump! Thanks dudes -more questions though..
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Author:  Brooklyn_Swinger [ Thu Aug 03, 2006 12:40 am ]
Post subject:  Fixed the water pump! Thanks dudes -more questions though..

Last night I finished up the water pump job on the '71 Swinger. Since that it was the first time I've ever replaced anything on an engine besides spark plugs I am pretty stoked. Thanks to all who gave me advice before I tackled it. The pump I ended up buying was from NAPA, and was made by GMB in Japan.
I can no longer hear the noise that the old pump was making -the new one is quiet. Other impressions - it was slightly difficult getting the new pump behind that plate that the A/C unit is mounted to (just like SlantSixDan said) and I was really worried that I would screw up the gasket and the seal since I couldn't really see what I was doing. Every single thing I had to do to do this job was a new experience for me, I'd never even taken off a belt before. Now all the belts and hoses are new.
I bought the '71 Dodge Service Manual and was referencing it, but it is assuming a lot of previous know-how (like it says "drain system, remove belts, remove hoses, remove and replace water pump" - easy!)
Anyway the Dart seems to be running fine (at least as well as before) after taking it around 5 miles of Brooklyn last night. No leaks! I guess the true test of how well I did will come months down the road, if it's still not leaking or throwing belts.

And now.... I have more questions for you fine folks.

1. I wonder if the car is running hot. The radiator is non-original and I don't know how it stacks up to the stock rad. During my short cruise last night the temp gauge needle was getting close to 90 percent across the presumably "acceptable" range and would get down to about 70 percent when the car was moving. It was at 1 am, but New York was still 90+ degrees. I stupidly did not replace the thermostat when I did this job, I know it's cheap but I just didn't think to do so. I don't know how hot the car ran when I first bought it because neither gas nor temp gauge was working. Mysteriously both started working after I changed the turn signal bulbs. :roll: Should I just drain it and replace that thermostat before I ask any more questions? :oops: Should my gauge be reading around the middle most the time?

2. How can I determine if this radiator is appropriate for the Dart? (Besides the fact that the drain at the bottom shoots the fluid during draining into the frame and therefore everywhere?) Believe me, I'm not in a hurry to buy an expensive radiator but also want to make the car run right, first and foremost.

3. How should I approach fixing the heater and the A/C? Right now the heater buttons and controls make nothing happen. My friend who was riding along last night starting fiddling with the heater controls after I was mentioning that the temp needle was rising higher than I was expecting. He was ready to start blasting the hot air out but we discovered that we couldn't do that even if we wanted to. I have no clue how to approach troubleshooting a heating system. The only button that made something happen was the A/C button. It sounded like it activated the unit under the hood (sounded kind of loud and unhappy) and put an obvious load on the engine, but there was no air coming out the vents. To be honest we didn't expect that to happen and quickly shut it off. Where to start? (Sorry if this is off-topic for the engine section)

4. Since my car was a factory A/C car would it have come with a fan shroud? It's not there now if it did. Would that help the car keep cool in stop-and-go? If it's significant, where should I get one?

5. Is that enough for now??!!! :shock: :) There is a lot more general mechanical and Dart-specific ignorance where that came from, trust me! I'll be damned if I won't overthink everything, too.

Thanks again.
DB

Author:  Slanted Opinion [ Thu Aug 03, 2006 4:45 am ]
Post subject: 

Hi,

Once you understand the basics, troubleshooting will become much easier.
:)

Hang on for this long post:

Regarding the heating problem:
The heating system consists of a little radiator mounted in a box under the dash. Water circulates from the engine, through the heater hoses, into this radiator and then back out to the engine. There is a small valve somwhere in one of these heater hoses, and that valve opens and closes (via a cable) as you slide the heater control from cool to warm. Want to check the heating system for coolant flow? With the engine is running and the heater control slid to "Warm", place your hand on the heater hoses as they go in and out of the firewall. Both should be hot. If they are, then water is circulating through the heater. If not, then either the valve isn't opening, the heater is plugged, or you have an air pocket in the system.

Additionally there is a small fan that blows air through the box and out the heater and defroster ducts in your cabin.

I believe from reading your post that you are saying the fan does not blow any air. You may have a bad fan, or a bad heater switch, or a bad fuse, or a bad speed control resistor. Check your service manual, there should be troubleshooting instructions, you may need a multimeter, or simply a 12 volt test lamp. If you need more help in this area, just ask.

Overheating issues: The fact that your temperature drops considerably when you are moving may point to poor airflow across the radiator, or there could be other issues. How many blades on the fan? A four blade fan may not be enough. Should be at least a 5 blade fan.

Change the thermostat. Can't hurt, and it is easy.

Is the radiator big enough / correct? Good question. It should be a full 22" wide (across the core), not 19" wide (these smaller ones were used on some non-AC cars). Looking into the radiator, it should have two rows of cores, or maybe 3. You should not see significant buildup of deposits clogging these core passages. Externally, the radiator should have most, if not all, of the little fins that run between the core passages. And it should be clean... bugs and grime in the fins of either the radiator or the AC condensor can severely restrict airflow, causing overheating. Use a hose to blast dirt and bugs out of these passages.

Finally, is there a shroud mounted to the radiator? If not, there may have once been, and if so, it is an important piece of the cooling system. Your service manual or others who own an AC car of your year and model should be able to answer that question.

Air Conditioning: When you press the AC button it activates an electric clutch mounted to the AC compressor, so the engine can begin turning the compressor. This part is working, and you can immediately tell that by the drop in engine RPM and obvious load on the engine. But the same fan that blows air through your heater box also blows air across a little "evaporator" AC coil in that same box... So if that fan won't run, you'll get no cold air into the cabin. Solve the fan issue first, then you can find out if the rest of your AC is working OK.

-Mac

Author:  SlantSixDan [ Thu Aug 03, 2006 9:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fixed the water pump! Thanks dudes -more questions thou

Quote:
Last night I finished up the water pump job on the '71 Swinger.
Congratulations on your first non-trivial repair! Now go charge yourself two hours at $91.98/hr :lol:
Quote:
I bought the '71 Dodge Service Manual and was referencing it, but it is assuming a lot of previous know-how
Yep...that's why ya need the other two books described in this thread.
Quote:
No leaks!
Good work.
Quote:
1. I wonder if the car is running hot. The radiator is non-original and I don't know how it stacks up to the stock rad. During my short cruise last night the temp gauge needle was getting close to 90 percent across the presumably "acceptable" range and would get down to about 70 percent when the car was moving.
Suggests the car is running hotter than it should, yes.
Quote:
It was at 1 am
Ah, yes, those late-late-night "can't wait to test out your handiwork" test drives. I have been on many of those!
Quote:
I stupidly did not replace the thermostat when I did this job, I know it's cheap but I just didn't think to do so.
Replacing the thermostat is a good idea. Use a good brand (Stant, Robertshaw, NAPA premium). The correct temperature rating is 180°, not 195° as many application guides say. Did you replace the coolant with new, or pour back in the old coolant?
Quote:
I don't know how hot the car ran when I first bought it because neither gas nor temp gauge was working. Mysteriously both started working after I changed the turn signal bulbs.
Suggests you will need to keep your eyes open for other weird electrical problems caused by iffy grounds.
Quote:
Should my gauge be reading around the middle most the time?
Roughly, yes.

Quote:
How can I determine if this radiator is appropriate for the Dart?
If it cools adequately and physically fits, it's appropriate for the car! If you are asking whether it's correct for the car, that's a different matter and would involve showing us a couple clear pictures (top view, rear view) of the rad.
Quote:
want to make the car run right, first and foremost.
Good goal.
Quote:
How should I approach fixing the heater and the A/C? Right now the heater buttons and controls make nothing happen.
Well, first let's define "nothing". If you push any of the buttons and fiddle with the fan speed switch, do you hear blower noises, but you don't feel any air coming out of anywhere? Or, do you not hear any blower noises? Do you hear anything shifting around/moving under the dash if you sit there with the engine idling and press "Heat", then "Def", then "Off"? You may have a faulty blower motor, a faulty fan switch, a faulty 5-button selector switch, faulty wiring and/or faulty vacuum hoses under the dash. Let's figure out exactly what's working and not working and go from there.
Quote:
The only button that made something happen was the A/C button. It sounded like it activated the unit under the hood (sounded kind of loud and unhappy) and put an obvious load on the engine, but there was no air coming out the vents.
OK, define "loud and unhappy". What kind of noise were you getting? Don't start thinking doom and gloom just yet; these A/C compressors are very sensitive to correct belt adjustment and you can get fearsome-sounding belt noise (slap/squeak/knock/rattle) from nothing more than improperly-tensioned belts. Question above about lack of airflow applies here, too...could you hear the blower motor come on, or no?
Quote:
Since my car was a factory A/C car would it have come with a fan shroud?
Yes.
Quote:
Would that help the car keep cool in stop-and-go?
Yes, but the car should not run hot in stop-and-go without the A/C on, even if the shroud is missing.
Quote:
If it's significant, where should I get one?
eBay. But don't shop for shrouds til we figure out what you've got for a radiator.
Quote:
I'll be damned if I won't overthink everything, too.
I don't see any stupid or time-wastingly fanciful questions coming from your direction...don't worry much about it!

Author:  Brooklyn_Swinger [ Fri Aug 04, 2006 9:11 am ]
Post subject: 

Thank you both -I'm going to reply again after I've been out with the Dart to find the answers to all the questions you've raised.

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