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These springs are tickin' me off.....
https://www.slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21147		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  BigBlockBanjo [ Mon Dec 18, 2006 10:47 pm ]
Post subject:  These springs are tickin' me off.....
Just loaded everything up and went back to the machine shop.(again)
The man told me that since I had double springs like that, it looks like the inner step would have to be cut flush with the rest of the spring seat.
:evil: .........
Is this right? He also said my springs should be installed and set to the correct height.
For some reason I feel like alot of this is bs and I'm paying for it!
If 340 springs are good enough for a 268 cam, shouldn't they work for a 264???
I just can't understand the deal with these springs, there's a voice in the back of my head screaming "Overkill!!" C'mon..I'll be driving it every day...does all this have to be done!?!?
Guess I'm getting tired of spending money....
BBBanjo
Author:  argentina-slantsixer [ Mon Dec 18, 2006 10:48 pm ]
Post subject: 
some shorter duration but incresed acceleration rate lobe profiles require stiffer srings.
Author:  Lars [ Mon Dec 18, 2006 11:22 pm ]
Post subject: 
If the springs have inner dampners, then is very likely you will need the spring seats cut. It's not uncommon at all. Also, always, always, always, match your springs to your cam, if you don't you'll get valve float, or worse yet, the cam will go flat shortly after break in.
Author:  emsvitil [ Tue Dec 19, 2006 12:56 am ]
Post subject: 
I've heard recommendations to run the cam initially without the inner springs so there's less likelyhood of wiping a cam lobe...........
Author:  Fireball [ Tue Dec 19, 2006 1:15 am ]
Post subject: 
One can do the break-in with inner spring removed, but it is not necessary on this case. His "340" springs are only like 80-90lbs seat pressure, thats safe for startup still even with inners in place.

BTW ask the machinist to make sure that seals will fit. I know several cases when this was not thought at all in the firs place, and it turned out that umbrella style didn't fit inside the spring, and teflon type didn't fit over the stem 8)
Author:  AnotherSix [ Tue Dec 19, 2006 8:48 am ]
Post subject: 
340 springs are not a dual spring. The inner damper does not count as a spring and should not be removed. If the engine in question is being set up for dual springs, machine work is very likely needed. And yes it is important at that point to have them set up to the right pressure. If you are running a high lift - high rate cam maybe you need springs that are more than the 340 springs, but if it is a normal (mild) street cam with around .450" lift and reasonable rpm the 340 springs should be fine. Going overboard on springs will wear out a cam pretty quickly. I have used stiffer springs than normally needed on road race type engines so they could rev well past peak power rpm. That is a special consideration and is paid for with short cam life. Are the springs being discussed correct according to the cam grinder?
Author:  BigBlockBanjo [ Tue Dec 19, 2006 9:24 am ]
Post subject: 
Yes, these are the reccomended springs. They are not 340 springs,........ I was saying I thought that 340 springs should work.
No.., the true, dual springs they sent with the cam have 120 seat and 300 lb. open pressure. Cam is a 264<>224 @.050<> .480 lift with stock rockers.
Maybe it needs crazy springs to deal with the crazy ramp rate?? I hope this thing doesn't go "broomstick" on me within 6000 mi.!! :shock:
I was wanting to have a nice street stomper....but not at the expense of tearing stuff up!
..........
Author:  LUCKY13 [ Tue Dec 19, 2006 12:29 pm ]
Post subject: 
Then do what your machinist says, because he is not trying to gouge you for extra money he is just doing what is required for the setup. And yes with that kinda spring pressure you do want to remove the inner spring for the startup & break in & then reinstall it. Sounds like you have a very good cam, it will be worth the trouble in the end. This setup should produce very good results if your cam grinder knows what he is doing.


Jess
Author:  LUCKY13 [ Tue Dec 19, 2006 12:50 pm ]
Post subject: 
By the way are you familure with the no Zink oil problem . Mobil 1 just doesnt cut it for a cam like this. Here is a little something to read if you dont know about the Zink.



Oil Artical about the Zink

Within this artical is a link of a product that can help. Also the meantion of the Joe Gibbs oil is something to look into. I didnt even know they meantioned the Joe Gibbs oil until I just read over it again but we have used the Gibbs Oil and it is worth its money if you willing to go this far. You have a very big investment in your engine and the right oil will pay off in the years to come.

Jess
Author:  Doc [ Tue Dec 19, 2006 1:44 pm ]
Post subject: 
Be sure to check the clearance between the spring retainer and the top of the valve guide at full lift. This is another place where some extra machining is needed when using a high lift cam in a SL6.
DD
Author:  BigBlockBanjo [ Tue Dec 19, 2006 1:47 pm ]
Post subject: 
Well, I hope it makes more power than I expect....!
About the oil.....I'll be using schaeffers. It's got more than enough zinc.
About the springs......machinist went to assemble the head...and the springs are .100 too tall.... :shrug:
They are part #6520/6620
So I called Schneider...and they were very nice about it. They said to return the springs in exchange for part #6506/6600
I asked him twice to make sure this is the right part number, and went and looked it up on the computer. Those parts are for a HYD cam, and made for a different retainer.?!? I guess they know what they are doing...
So I'll be sending them back directly.......
I know it'll be worth all the trouble when I get it together.
Thanks guys,
BBBanjo
Author:  LUCKY13 [ Tue Dec 19, 2006 4:18 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Well, I hope it makes more power than I expect....!
About the oil.....I'll be using schaeffers. It's got more than enough zinc.
About the springs......machinist went to assemble the head...and the springs are .100 too tall.... :shrug:
They are part #6520/6620
So I called Schneider...and they were very nice about it. They said to return the springs in exchange for part #6506/6600
I asked him twice to make sure this is the right part number, and went and looked it up on the computer. Those parts are for a HYD cam, and made for a different retainer.?!? I guess they know what they are doing...
So I'll be sending them back directly.......
I know it'll be worth all the trouble when I get it together.
Thanks guys,
BBBanjo
Couldnt the machinist just have cut the needed room for the springs? Putting a set of HYDRO springs on a agressive cut solid cam just dont sound right to me. I guess like you said they know what there cam needs. But this makes me wander if it is a agress ramp cam. Well I hope it works out. Cam & head effect power greatly. You have went through so much I hope its a good performer. It would be a shame to be a run of the mill cam and go through all this.

I have a very good cam grinder that will be coming up with some new grinds for a turbo setup I am putting together. Maybe they will work well & others will have a other tried & tested setup to choise from instead of going through what you have. I have seen a cam make or break a combo so we are going to great lenths to provide my grinder with a lot of data to help with the grind in hopes of getting a cam that well perform above & beyound the shelf cams. Good luck and lets us know the results. Just wandering do you have a cam card to go with your cam with the opening & closing events on it? I would like to see the specs if its no secret.

Jess
Author:  BigBlockBanjo [ Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:07 pm ]
Post subject: 
I asked about that....he said that at 1/10 of an inch, he was worried about hitting a thin jacket, or making the seats too weak, esp. if I went with a more radical cam later down the road. This baby should turn 6000 no problem. I believe it is a very aggressive ramp rate. It's Hydraulic Intensity is much more than say....a 292 Comp Chevy cam. It's right up durn near some small roller cam specs.
I assume the grinder does know what he is talking about.
I wish you luck in getting a cam "package" together....it would really make things alot easier. Let's face it.....Hi-Po Slant builds are not around every corner...and most buisness/race shops know little or nothing about them. Besides the fact that they are "Tough little motors". :?
Those springs were in the books as "Mopar 225" springs? Maybe a lack of research on their part? Maybe the head was cast a little thick (valve seat)-to-(spring seat)? Who knows. I will post the cam's attitude as soon as I get it going. Power range, hard starting, mpg, wear, ect.
I will post the specs as soon as I get the cam card....I left it at the shop.
on a guess....I believe the intake opens a 22*. 110 Centerline....I'll get the card.....
Thanks,
BBBanjo
Author:  Lars [ Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:10 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
I've heard recommendations to run the cam initially without the inner springs so there's less likelyhood of wiping a cam lobe...........
I've read/heard this also. Anything 300 lbs. and over open seat pressure should have the inner spring removed. I did it on my 360, hopefully the break-in will go well. :shock:
Author:  LUCKY13 [ Wed Dec 20, 2006 1:30 am ]
Post subject: 
Good deal BigBlockBanjo, atleast you know the effort you are putting into it is not a waste ( knowing it is a agressive cam). Sounds like both parties (machinist & cam grinder) know where they stand and what they have to work with so things should work out well. I believe a lot of builds fall short of there goals because of not getting a cam matched to there combo to take full advantage of everything they have spent there money on. I have seen a many a peaky high HP cars that couldnt run a good number because of the cam.

No hurry on the cam card. I have just put a lot of time into researching cam tech lately and it interest me to see new specs from cam grinders. Some of these guys really know what there doing, maybe even better than some of the big companies.

Jess
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