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Harmonic balancer installation depth?
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Author:  Aggressive Ted [ Thu Aug 02, 2007 11:14 am ]
Post subject:  Harmonic balancer installation depth?
Gents,

A little rework.........

I need to pull my balancer this weekend and sleeve it. I am getting some oil wicking at 16,000 miles after the rebuild around the oil seal and it's starting to accumulate on the timing chain cover and a slow drip down the front to the pan.

When you re-install the balancer, how do you know when to stop cranking down on the bolt to where it is lined up correctly?
Is it suppose to be flush with the end of the crank?
or does it bottom out against the sprocket before then?
I picked up a 3" bolt, will that be long enough? or do I need a longer one? or shorter one?

I had the machine shop due this part for me last winter and have not done the installation myself before.

Thanks in advance for your help!
Author:  Sam Powell [ Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:02 pm ]
Post subject: 
Did you have the machine shop polish the herring bone pattern off the seal surface of the crank? That hearing bone pattern is for the old rope seal, and will wear out the newer plastic ones. I'm sorry if that is what you are up against. If you did not polish the front of the crank, than maybe you can get an old style rope seal somwhere and work that up in there. I believe I have seen instruction on replacing the old rope seal without taking the crank out.

Sam
Author:  Aggressive Ted [ Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:08 pm ]
Post subject:  balancer depth?
I am not sure if they did or not until I pull the balancer out.

Won't the new sleeve provide a smooth enough surface?

How far do you tighten the balancer down?

Thanks,
Author:  slantzilla [ Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:27 pm ]
Post subject: 
I have a 3" or so bolt that is all thread. I use a nut and washer and push the balancer on.

It must seat against the crank sprocket.

Your sleeve will cover the herring bone pattern.
Author:  rock [ Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Ted, here is what I do
Ted,

In practice a real constraint is whether the pulley or pulleys on the damper line up vertically with the water pump/fan pulley(s). There is only one way to know how far in it will go and that it to ease it in all the way. It will solidly bottom out, so be watching for that and stop. Put on the puller and pull the damper out a 1/8 or 3/16 inch. Then place a pulley up to it and see how upper and lower pulleys line up, if you haven't put the damper pulley on to start with. I would just put the pulleyon the damper, tighten er up to block, back it out a tad, use a belt and see if it is plumb with both damper and upper pulley(s). If you polish up the inside of the damper and the outside of the crank, you will find the damper goes on surprisingly easily. (I am assuming you are pulling the damper on with a bolt or a threaded rod tool, don't beat it on or you will probably ruin a cam bearing.)

rock
'64d100
Author:  Aggressive Ted [ Thu Aug 02, 2007 1:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Harmonic balancer installation depth?
Yes, I will be pushing it back on with a bolt on the end of the crank.

I wasn't sure if the end of the crank was suppose to be flush with the face of the balancer or not. I haven't done this procedure before. The way it can back from the shop everything lined up great. I just didn't know how far it went on.

I haven't taken the car apart yet and was just looking for a heads up. The manuals really don't clearly say where to stop. If the sprocket stops it with out hurting anything, great! I am guessing there is a shoulder on the crank to stop the sprocket from going on any further..........

Thanks,
Author:  Doc [ Thu Aug 02, 2007 1:43 pm ]
Post subject: 
The damper bottoms-out on the lower timing chain gear face, you will know it when it gets there.'

For front t-cover sealing, the seal presses into the cover and a small amount of sealer should be used at that joint to ensure that oil does not seep thru, between the cover's seal socket and the seal's outer stamped steel shell.

The inner lip of the seal rides on the hub of the dampener, that surface needs to be smooth. (and it usually is)

The biggest cause of leaks out the front crank seal is mis-alignment, many seals are not well centered on the spinning damper hub. I check this relationship with a "dummy" hub and either drill the cover's locating pin holes oversize or pull the pins in order to get the seal to center on the hub.
DD
Author:  Aggressive Ted [ Thu Aug 02, 2007 2:37 pm ]
Post subject: 
Thank you all and for your help.

Doc, Thanks for the extra tip on sealing the seal. Good tip!

Glad it bottoms out against the gear. That will make it easier.

Hopefully the timing chain cover is lined up so the seal isn't distorted like you pointed out. May be I should grind out the timing chain cover a little or sand off some of the new seal casing so it can center since your suggesting I glue/seal it in place? I user Permatex Ultra black sealer.

If it is off some, maybe the new damper sleeve's larger diameter will help to minimize any offset and distortion.

I would like to run synthetic oil to help with the mileage. I tried it last oil change and the leak showed up. So I thought getting the sleeve for the harmonic balancer would provide a better surface and a little bigger diameter for the seal. I am sure the balancer must be undersized from all the miles.

This engine had 365,000 on it when a brand new "Mighty" oil filter collapsed (the bypass was plastic and would not bypass until when tested reached 70 pounds) and wiped the motors front two rod bearings. Since it was full of synthetic, I was able to get to an auto parts store to get a new filter. Bingo! back to 45 pounds pressure, and drove it 60 miles back home. Those first two rods sounded bad though. Had to grind the crank .010 undersize to clean it up. Balanced the crank rods and pistons while we had it out.

Thus the rebuild last fall and winter.......
Author:  rock [ Thu Aug 02, 2007 4:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Ted, a note of caution
Ted,

DD always has some gems, doesn't he! I would caution you not to get complicated. My leak problems at that seal stopped the day I did what Doc says and drilled out the cover's locating dowel pin holes a tad. I don't even remember what they are, I just ran each 1/16 more. Then the cover "floats" and self centers when you install the damper with the cover bolts still loose.
I don't like the sound of sanding the seal down at all...The right seal is tight but goes right in. it does have to be pressed in . I have done the installation with a hammer and block but even a bottle jack and flat stock pressing up against something immobile is better. Put 3M baby poop color window rubber sealer inside the housing where the seal sits. It will really seal the housing tothe seal. If you ever find the older seals that had a flange that curved up and over the housing, grab em! If your damper hub has a deep groove from a old seal PM me. I have several usable dampers and would not reuse one with a deep groove, nor would I turn down the hub on a lathe. Dampers are too available. And look for Doc's article about putting in a cam stop bolt in the "X" of the cover. If you have the cover off, just braze a nut in.
rock
'64d100
Author:  Sam Powell [ Fri Aug 03, 2007 5:43 pm ]
Post subject: 
Everything Doc says is helpfull, and he cetainly has tons of valuable experience, but don;t discount that trick of polishing the herringbone pattern off the crank. It can only help. The engine I did not do this on leaks small amounts at the front. The one I did polish off does not. Maybe this is too small a sample to prove anything, but I was tipped off to this by a very knowledgeable. long time Mopar guy who recommended it as a standard practice.

Sam
Author:  Bren67Cuda904 [ Fri Aug 03, 2007 6:49 pm ]
Post subject: 
he won't be able to without pulling the crank. He didn't say he had oil leaking out the back. Its leaking out the front.
Author:  Charrlie_S [ Fri Aug 03, 2007 6:54 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Everything Doc says is helpfull, and he cetainly has tons of valuable experience, but don;t discount that trick of polishing the herringbone pattern off the crank. It can only help. The engine I did not do this on leaks small amounts at the front. The one I did polish off does not. Maybe this is too small a sample to prove anything, but I was tipped off to this by a very knowledgeable. long time Mopar guy who recommended it as a standard practice.

Sam
I don't know of any herringbone pattern on the front of the crank, or damper. The seal surface of the damper has always been smooth. The herringbone refered to is on the rear seal surface of the crank. If using a rope seal this should be left alone. If using the rubber seal (which is what come in all the current seal sets) it helps to polish this part of the crank, to help prevent rer seal leaks.

If the seal surface of the damper is grooved, use a sleeve on it.
Author:  Sam Powell [ Fri Aug 03, 2007 7:39 pm ]
Post subject: 
You are absolutely right. I have reason to be embarassed twice in one day here. Maybe I better wait until the effect of the anesthetic from my operation wears away completely until I contribute anything important. :lol: I realized that this evening while I was thinking about this thread, and was getting ready to say as much, before Charlie beat me to it. So, the bottom line is, no herring bone pattern on the front, so you could not possibly be leaking because of that deal. Sorry. Do as Doc says, (and Charlie too of course),and she should not leak.

Sam
Author:  Aggressive Ted [ Sat Aug 04, 2007 9:32 am ]
Post subject: 
Thanks gentlemen.

I will tear into it today. Hopefully the cover is not out of alignment and the sleeve and new seal will do the trick. I am hoping I won't have to pull the cover.

Doc, what could I use to slide on and off the crank easily to make sure it is centered? I don't have an extra dummy hub. That is another good idea and tool to have handy. Maybe something could be made out of plumbing parts?
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