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bad gas mileage, is it the catalytic converter?
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Author:  Seattle07 [ Sat Aug 04, 2007 2:29 am ]
Post subject:  bad gas mileage, is it the catalytic converter?

I have a 75 plymouth valiant with a slant six. I did the 2 BBL super six swap, and my gas mileage dropped from 17 to under 10. I spent a long time trying to figure out what was wrong ( I am not a car mechanic), and finally took it to the shop. Apparently it was running really rich; the guy said 2% over during idle, and 5% over under load. I got the jetting worked out and now it gets about 15 mpg. Most of my spark plugs are cinamon white, so I think the mixture is on. my timing is at 10 degrees initial advance, and it idles well, and does not ping much. But I should be able to get 17mpg or better right? If my car was running rich for a while could my catalytic converter get plugged up? The car is very sluggish, and the engine does not have an air pump. also, if I were to change my exhaust, what setup would provide the best gas mileage with a super six? Any Ideas or advice would be greatly appreciated.

Author:  slantzilla [ Sat Aug 04, 2007 6:16 am ]
Post subject: 

A rich condition for an extended time can indeed clog a cat. The cat media could have also broken down and could actually be what caused the rich conditon to start with.

If you replace the exhaust, go to a 2" ID pipe. With an otherwise stock motor anything bigger is overkill. If you go bigger, make sure to drill in lots of drain holes because it will condense water like crazy.

Author:  SlantSixDan [ Sat Aug 04, 2007 7:59 am ]
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Slantzilla, you feelin' OK? That's kind of a strange answer :shock:
With the 2bbl setup, the factory used a 2-¼" headpipe all the way to the muffler, with a 1-7/8" tailpipe. Same muffler and tailpipe used on various V8-equipped A-bodies. So no, 2-$#188;" pipe isn't overkill. The pipe size doesn't significantly affect the amount of condensate in the exhaust. And where would you have him drill drain holes? Well-made mufflers already have condensate drains.

Seattle07: Your symptoms (poor mileage despite clean plugs, sluggish acceleration) can indicate exhaust restriction, and they can also indicate retarded camshaft timing. Catalytic converters, especially early ones like that on your '75, can indeed plug up. As Slantzilla says, extended rich running can greatly accelerate the process. However, a catalyst failure cannot cause a rich condition -- that's down to the carburetor's condition and calibration.

However, something else you said needs discussion: You say the car hasn't got an air pump. Without my '75 FPC in front of me, I am pretty sure that all '75s originally equipped with a catalytic converter were also originally equipped with an air pump. The aspirator type air injection (w/o pump) didn't come along until '77 or so. Air injection is a necessary part of most catalytic-equipped emission control systems, especially these early carburetor-plus-catalyst systems. Without air injection, you will have excessive raw fuel in the catalyst on a fairly regular basis, which will heat it up and melt it down, clogging your exhaust. Replacing the converter will help in the short run, but it'll melt down again. You will want to have a careful look for evidence that the car used to have an air pump. There is a fitting for an air injection pipe at the rear of the manifold mounting surface of the cylinder head, that's the "upstream" air injection point and some early systems inject air only at this point. The "downstream" point is a tube on the side of the catalytic converter. Early systems don't have it — I'm not sure at the moment what year downstream air injection first appeared. But, it greatly improves the efficiency of the converter and helps guard against converter meltdown.

So, go have a careful look — maybe show us some clear pictures of your engine compartment — and let's see what's been removed and what remains. You will likely need to add an air pump back on, with associated pipework and valves. The parts will be challenging but not impossible to find. Once we've established what the car does & doesn't have as part of the emission control system, then we can start talking about appropriate replacement converters.

As for the cam timing issue: How many miles are on the car? Has it ever had major engine work? The cams were installed in a retarded position in the '70s, and that's even assuming the assembly was done to spec, which it usually wasn't (sloppy assembly at Chrysler in '75), and also assuming no wear to the timing chain and sprockets (also a bad assumption because the nylon-over-aluminum cam sprocket does tend to wear).

You've still got a ways to go, but you're making good progress!

Author:  slantzilla [ Sat Aug 04, 2007 9:52 am ]
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Dan, yes I am feeling ok, thanks for asking. :lol:

Been there, done that on the exhaust. 2-1/4" pipe all the way back on my Duster. It would gather up about a quart of water. I ended up drilling holes at all the low spots.

The ex-wife almost got tossed from RT66 for dumping water on the starting line. I did not believe it until I saw it happen myself.

Bigger pipe makes the exhaust lose velocity and heat on the way back.

Author:  SlantSixDan [ Sat Aug 04, 2007 10:00 am ]
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Quote:
2-1/4" pipe all the way back
OK, yeah, I can see 2-1/4" pipe all the way back losing enough velocity to trap water. The factory wasn't just trying to save money when they used a smaller tailpipe than headpipe, they were keeping velocity up as the exhaust cooled and lost volume.

Author:  slantzilla [ Sat Aug 04, 2007 11:02 am ]
Post subject: 

Quote:
Quote:
2-1/4" pipe all the way back
OK, yeah, I can see 2-1/4" pipe all the way back losing enough velocity to trap water. The factory wasn't just trying to save money when they used a smaller tailpipe than headpipe, they were keeping velocity up as the exhaust cooled and lost volume.
That would be my guess too. Smaller tail pipe than head pipe can also increase torque, but at a loss of top end power. Not a big consideration on a stock Slant I would say. :lol: :lol:

Author:  Aggressive Ted [ Sat Aug 04, 2007 2:35 pm ]
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Gents,

My 74 had the stock 2" head pipe and then 1 7/8" pipe.

After changing to 2 1/4 all the way back and going to a free flowing muffler my engine went from being a slug to a wheel spinning mileage machine. The welded muffler has a very thick case and doesn't seem to draw very much water. I really haven't noticed any difference between the setups as far as water entrapment is concerned. The entire system is very tight, no clamped joints and instead is welded. One difference that kind of stands out is that the old exhaust system the end of the pipe was only luke warm. The new 2 1/4 system gets so hot it will easily burn the heck out of you!

Author:  SlantSixDan [ Sat Aug 04, 2007 3:01 pm ]
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Stock in '74 was a 1-7/8" headpipe and 1-3/4" tailpipe. The old system's not getting hot at the end, together with the car's sluggish performance before you changed to the new system, strongly suggests you had a plugged-up muffler or collapsed pipe in the old system.

Author:  Seattle07 [ Sat Aug 04, 2007 4:52 pm ]
Post subject: 

So I looked at the old 1BBL and the new 2 BBL exhaust manifold, and neither of them have a fitting for an air pump. The catalytic converter does have a fitting, but it is plugged up. I have put 14,000 miles on the car without an air pump, and I highly suspect that the pump was removed a long time ago.
So heres my plan: ditch the converter, get 2 1/4" head pipe, high flow muffler and 1 7/8" tailpipe. What do you guys think? how much would this cost?

Author:  SlantSixDan [ Sat Aug 04, 2007 5:17 pm ]
Post subject: 

Quote:
So I looked at the old 1BBL and the new 2 BBL exhaust manifold, and neither of them have a fitting for an air pump.
Please be sure to read the advice you get on here carefully. Again, the fitting for upstream air injection is on the manifold mounting surface of the cylinder head.
Quote:
I have put 14,000 miles on the car without an air pump, and I highly suspect that the pump was removed a long time ago.
OK, so if you're not up for violating Federal laws, then you'll need to put it back in place.
Quote:
So heres my plan: ditch the converter
That's Federally illegal. It may also be illegal in your state. Check before proceeding; WA State and the Puget Sound vicinity both have pretty stringent and well-funded DEQs, and the fines can be quite stiff. I don't remember what the present requirements are for a '75 car as regards periodic emission tests. Do you have to pass such tests?
Quote:
get 2 1/4" head pipe, high flow muffler and 1 7/8" tailpipe. What do you guys think?
There is no need for a "high flow" muffler; the extra flow capacity of a regular muffler with a 2-1/4" inlet, compared to the stock muffler you're replacing, will provide an adequate flow capacity increase. You can certainly put on whatever muffler you wish, but be advised that many, many of the "high flow" or "turbo" mufflers on the market are annoyingly noisy (either right from the start, or after a few weeks, or after a few months) and many of the cheaper ones don't hold up well.
Quote:
how much would this cost?
That's a question for your local pipefitter. Pick a few reputable independent shops to go to; stay away from the likes of Midas, Meineke and the other franchised scam artists.

Author:  Bren67Cuda904 [ Sat Aug 04, 2007 6:34 pm ]
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In terms of whats legal and not. The whole system needs to be in place and operational to be legal. Some places simply check for the converter and some check for everything. You must decide if you plan to break the law or not. If you live in one of those areas that simply check for the converter, it could be cut out, smash all the ceramic stuff out of it and reinstall. Keep in mind this is still legal. You may find that fixing the whole system costs more than the car is worth.
I know what I would do, but most demacrates would disagree with this. :roll:
If your car is tuned and is not producing a plume of rainforest distruction, other words producing the same or less bad stuff as a preEmissions car, I'd be happy with my contribution to the planet.

Author:  82truck [ Sat Aug 04, 2007 7:52 pm ]
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in Washington state no more emission tests after vehicle is 25 years old. the slant in my 86 van is being rebuilt now and when done i planned on putting 2 1/4 pipe all the way out the back. everything is stock except for the cam which Tom from Erson grinded a rv10h. that exhaust should be ok isn't it.

Author:  SlantSixDan [ Sat Aug 04, 2007 8:03 pm ]
Post subject: 

Quote:
If you live in one of those areas that simply check for the converter, it could be cut out, smash all the ceramic stuff out of it and reinstall. Keep in mind this is still legal.
Incorrect. It is Federally illegal, and illegal in most states, to remove or disable (i.e., gut/empty) a catalytic converter, except for the purpose of immediate replacement with a new converter. This applies regardless of whether or not the vehicle is subject to periodic emission tests.

Author:  argentina-slantsixer [ Sat Aug 04, 2007 9:20 pm ]
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there's one thing easier to break than to bend, and that's the law (and some crystal clarinet mouthpieces)

I would check how things are in your state and then go the performance way, I wouldn't be holding horses or mileage on account of retrograde and stupid enviromental policies.

Author:  Rug_Trucker [ Sun Aug 05, 2007 7:12 am ]
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All I know is my converter on my van was rattling back in '04. When I changed mufflers in '06? I took a 4ft long piece of #5 rebar to break out the guts on the converter. It was completely empty!! I never knew they would do that!

I live in a county that doesn't do emission testing. Nashville does. I have no air pump as mine siezed many years ago. The Offy intake has no provision for EGR. I do have a PCV.

Our state they can't open the hood, they sniff the tail pipe, check for a cat with a mirror, and check to see if you wallowed out the inlet on the tank :roll: That is an outdated check!

Properly tuned on these old heaps you can pass without a working cat.

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