| Slant Six Forum https://www.slantsix.org/forum/ |
|
| Turboharging & Intercooling my SL6. Anyone done this? https://www.slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24371 |
Page 1 of 1 |
| Author: | Glenn Gatley [ Tue Aug 07, 2007 3:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Turboharging & Intercooling my SL6. Anyone done this? |
I own a low milage (35K), one owner, 225 slant 6 powered 1975 Plymouth Duster that I drive every day. The car looks and runs fantastic, but SERIOUSLY lacks any power. The motor is stock with the single barrel carb as is the rest of the drivetrain. I just bought a used turbo and intercooler that I plan to install. My question is simple, is there anyone out there that has done the same blow-through turbo/intercooler set-up? I found the "how to" artical on this website, but the photos lack detail, the text is unclear, and several questions remain unanswered. If anyone has some real world knowledge of installing a turbo on a slant 6, then please contact me. My e-mail address is: GlennGatley@Yahoo.com Thanks in advance. |
|
| Author: | sharp21 [ Tue Aug 07, 2007 4:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Check the articles section from the main page. Also, just do a search on turbocharging. Lots of info here. Welcome! S. |
|
| Author: | Matt Cramer [ Wed Aug 08, 2007 7:27 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
I ended up buying the turbo setup used in the article. Installed it on my Dart - and eventually wound up replacing every part in the setup. What sort of turbo do you have? If you post your unanswered questions here, I'll do my best to answer them. |
|
| Author: | Shaker223 [ Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
See link below to my turbo /6 with a carb. Go to turbomustangs.com as well. Lots of good info there. Might answer some of your questions. http://www.slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24037 |
|
| Author: | Glenn Gatley [ Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
OK "Mad Scientist", are you ready??? Thanks in advance for your time in answering my questions. Here are a few in no special order... 1. My motor is stock and if I have read correctly, it has 8.4 to 1 compression. Can the motor handle the additional stress caused by boosting and if yes, up to how much boost would you consider "safe" 2. I have been told that being my SL6 will be a low boost application (ie: 5 to 7lbs), that the use of an intercooler would create drag and therefore simply be a waste of time. Your thoughts? 3. Fuel pressure regulation. In a blow through application, I will need increased fuel pressure while under boost, but drop back to normal at an idle. How is this accomplished? Is there a fuel pressure regulator that automatically adjust flow according to boost and if so, who makes it? 4. I am currently in the market for a "Super Six" intake / carb / linkage set-up as I am certain that the single barrel will not provide enough CFM when under boost. Do you know of any special steps I would need to take in order to prepare the two barrel carb for the "blow-through" boost it will see? 5. Any ideas on exhaust plumbing? I have read ALOT of article's that make reference to the EXTREME heat that the exhaust manifold will be exposed to and the likely-hood that the exhaust manifolds will warp. It seems to me that the farther away from the engine you can get the turbo (within reason), the less likely the manifold will warp. I was thinking that a "J" shaped pipe attached to the exhaust manifold, then the turbo on the other end would prevent this problem. Any ideas? 6. Turbo lube & cool. The turbo I bought is both water cooled and oil lubricated. Is there any special place I should "tap into" the cooling and oiling system to ensure adequate flow? Will a simple "T" fitting get the job done? 7. Speaking of the turbo that I bought... I have been told by two people that the turbo and intercooler that I have is to small for a slant 6 application. The turbo and intercooler has only about 1500 mile on it and is in like new condition. It was removed from a Mitsubishi Eclipse GS-T 2.0 liter, 16 valve vehicle. Although the turbo is smaller that I would have liked, my thoughts were that first, the turbo is like new, second, there will be virtually no turbo lag and third, the SL6 is a low reeving motor. I am concerned that any larger of a turbo, by the time and boost has been created the motor will already be at it's red-line. Any thoughts on this? Again, thanks for your time and insight. Glenn Gatley glenngatley@yahoo.com |
|
| Author: | LUCKY13 [ Wed Aug 08, 2007 3:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
I will try to anwser some of your questions. Of course these are my opinions & others may ot agree. But I have been building Turbo street/strip cars sense back in the early 90's. #1 Yes, if its in good shape in all parts of the engine. There is more stress, but not more than good stock parts can handle. How much boost? Wrong question. The boost number itself is only a reading of restriction. What matters, is how far you can go without detination. And this will have alot to do with, manifold/header design, fuel induction,turbo, igniton, fuel type,cooling,condision of engine,weight of car,gearing, tuning, weather, and many other things. As a good rule of thumb, you can probably run much more horsepower, than you can achive without going passed the point of detination. In other words, you will have detination problems before you reach any horsepower limits. And the detination limits will end up being you horsepower limits (within reason). #2 No this is not true in anyway. The results from a turbo system have more to do with the temp of the air, than how much air gets in the engine. Is a IC needed at these low levels, NO, you can get by without it. But a good IC sized right can do nothing but help & give better durability & horsepower for the engine. It will allow you to run more boost with less problems of detination. And even in a low boost setup, it will allow you to push the tuneup & get more power out of the boost you run (more timing,leaner fuel & that gives more HP) #3 Yes, there is what they call a " Boost referance regulator". It gets a boost signal from the intake side & incresses the fuel pressure when boost climbs. You can even take a normal regulator & drill it to have a boost port & it will make it do this. But I do not recamend this unless you know what you are doing and have expeirance. #4 Right here is a very good place to start on learning what needs modified on a Holley carb for Blow-Thru. http://www.hangar18fabrication.com/blowthru.html Here is a forum with a lot of Blow-Thru carb info. There is a Carb & Boost section that you should read each & every one of the threads. http://www.theturboforums.com/smf/index.php #5 If your making enough heat to kill the manny, your engine is probably going to be toast already. One of the main problems in a turbo setup is getting the heat out (out of the cylinder). But still yet, it is the heat & the pressure defirencial ( I know spelling) that makes it work. The stock manny with a J pipe will work. But it is not going to give you anywhere near the results that a well made header will do. It is also going to limit you on the detination threshhole. In other words make it easy to detinate, because of backpressure & heat being trapped in the cylinder. The exhaust side of the turbo setup limits will hold you back more than the intake side limits. #6 It is best to get these things there own source. But the oil can be as simple as hooking up to the oil pressure sending unit oil feed. A T fitting will work, but you would want to be sure you used the stright side of the fitting for the turbo. You dont want no 90 degree turns in your oil feed. The return oil feed is even more important. It must be stright & go down hill. It also must inter the engine above the oil level & it is best to be at a piont that does not have windage. Any resistance at the oil return will cause the oil pressure to over come the seals in the turbo & it will start causing smoking problems. The water side could be taped into something like a heater hose. Like take the pressure side hose & hook to turbo & come from turbo back to where you removed the pressure side heater hose. Just put it in the loop so to say, and be sure it does flow the water. Some heater circuits may have a heater shut off valve that stops the water from flowing through the heater core ( like a car with A/C) and you want to make sure the water flows at all times & there is no valve that will stop this when the ehater is turned off. #7 It is way to small (both the turbo & intercooler). Two of them could work though, but that is a lot of work. Being worried about the turbo not spooling is the wrong thing to do (within reason). The worst thing you can do is go with to small a turbo. You say, well I only want 7 or 8# of boost, it will be OK, right? But that is not how it works. Remember, boost is only a mesurment of resistance, and not how much power you will have. The exhaust side of that turbo will choke the /6 & cause all kinds of tuning problems & bring in the detination level at a very early time compaired to the proper size turbo. It will keep the heat in the cylinder & cause high EGT's & low RPM's ( lower than you want). Sale the turbo, and start over. It is a waste of time to use it & will end up causing you to probably blow your engine. Just something to think about. Read the info I link to, read it all, then go read some more. There is a lot fo info out there that will help you make the right choices. Learn what you need to make them, and dont expect anyone to make them for you. You will end up on the wrong end of the stick if you dont. But just a little on how I would build this. Go buy a GT61 Garrett turbo, they can be had for around $800.00 & will give you a good spool, plus a good power level. The bigger turbo will pump cooler air, this will allow you to reach much better low boost performance because it will make more power before reaching the detination limits. And it will pump more air at the same boost levels as the smaller turbo. Build a good header instead of using the factory manny. This will allow better permormance & help keep the back pressure, & heat in the engine down. Which will agian let you reach higher levels of performance before reaching the detination limits. On the Carberation This is a tough one. the slant six has a problem with fuel distribution. Which setup to use has not really been worked out. But what ever you use, take very small steps with tuning & boost levels. Read the plugs (all of them after every single change) like you was looking threw you best PlayBoy mags ( if you do that, if not you know what I mean). Doing this will get you there without destroying the engine & allow you to reach very nice power levels without even pushing the system. After the system is made properly the tuning will be the key to success. And you can only push things as far as your worst cylinder will allow you to. Fuel injection is really the anwser & worth the effort in many ways. It can even be done cheaper than going out & buying a Blow-Thru ready carb system. The stock engine. The /6 is a tough little engine, and has some very nice factory stuff in it already. Like the crank is forged, the rods are forged. The pistons are not forged, but they are some of the best factory cast pistons you will ever see. And although I have not proved this, I feel sure they would stand up to 400hp if the setup is tuned right & the cylinder is not let to over heat (inside the combustion chamber, not water temp). Now I am talking, never,ever let it detinate kinda tuning. Even the best pistons on the market will die in a instance if its treated wrong. There is no doute in my mind that turbo systems on the /6 is the best way to make good power out of them. It can be cheaper, easier on the engine, be much more streetable, and make way more power than big stroker or high compression race type setups. Its just got to be right. Your build At the very least, get a turbo that is more to size for the /6. Even if you use the factory exhaust manny, and no intercooler. A GT61 (T4 turbo) on the factory manny is still going to do much better than any overly small turbo setup that can be made. And even in a limited setup like this , 300hp plus on pump gas could be achived at low boost levels ( more than 7psi though) very easy. Hope this helps, and remember this is only the beginning, there is much more that could be touch on this subject. And I am sure there is some that will dissagree with me., and that does not mean they, or me, are wrong or right. There is just always more than one way to skin a cat as they say. Jess PS, I have to go for now, and with this long a post I may need to go over & change some things. Jess |
|
| Author: | sharp21 [ Wed Aug 08, 2007 7:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Great post! Ill be watching this one.. S. |
|
| Author: | Pat Dawson [ Thu Aug 09, 2007 5:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
I've never built my own turbo set-up but I did own and race a 1984 Colt Turbo (1.6L) in which I managed a best of 14.48 @100.68 mph in the 1/4 mile. If the car was RWD I'm sure the ET would have been lower. I just want to add a comment to question 6 on oil return. Make sure the oil return line is at least twice as big as the feed line because the oil will be whipped into a foamy froth as it exits the turbo bearing and heads for the oil pan and, as mentioned, needs unencumbered room to move. You probably know this already. I wonder why there is not a pre thought out complete turbo kit for an engine that's so ubiquitous. One with all new parts and one budget kit using the thousands of salvage turbo systems left over from the "turbo era" of the 80's and 90's. I'm guessing there is not enough demand to insure profitability in a business sense and turbo control technology probably was not so hot when the Slant 6 was still a big seller before computer control and electronic fuel injection. And in those days if you wanted more power you just opted for the Commando V8. |
|
| Author: | Matt Cramer [ Thu Aug 09, 2007 6:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Lucky's already given a detailed answer, but I thought I'd write one too. Quote: OK "Mad Scientist", are you ready??? Thanks in advance for your time in answering my questions. Here are a few in no special order...
The highest I've heard of safely running on a slant six with 100% stock internals was 10 psi. The key is keeping detonation under control; if it pings, no amount of boost will be safe.1. My motor is stock and if I have read correctly, it has 8.4 to 1 compression. Can the motor handle the additional stress caused by boosting and if yes, up to how much boost would you consider "safe" Quote: 2. I have been told that being my SL6 will be a low boost application (ie: 5 to 7lbs), that the use of an intercooler would create drag and therefore simply be a waste of time. Your thoughts?
Intercoolers are only a waste of time if you put them in an exceedingly bad location, like one that draws air that's already come through the radiator. They will add power at virtually any level of boost worth running.Quote: 3. Fuel pressure regulation. In a blow through application, I will need increased fuel pressure while under boost, but drop back to normal at an idle. How is this accomplished? Is there a fuel pressure regulator that automatically adjust flow according to boost and if so, who makes it?
This usually uses a boost referenced regulator, whic is pretty common. When I had a carb, I used a typical Holley that I modified by filling its vent hole and adding a hose barb that opened into the same area connected to the vent hole. It's possible, but difficult, to modify a slant six fuel pump to perform this function.Quote: 4. I am currently in the market for a "Super Six" intake / carb / linkage set-up as I am certain that the single barrel will not provide enough CFM when under boost. Do you know of any special steps I would need to take in order to prepare the two barrel carb for the "blow-through" boost it will see?
I'm not a good enough carb guru to prep a carb for boost, which is why I went EFI. There's quite a few carb turbo guys who hang out on TheTurboForums.com (TurboMustangs, but they renamed it because they had so many people with other cars show up to learn about turbos).Quote: 5. Any ideas on exhaust plumbing? I have read ALOT of article's that make reference to the EXTREME heat that the exhaust manifold will be exposed to and the likely-hood that the exhaust manifolds will warp. It seems to me that the farther away from the engine you can get the turbo (within reason), the less likely the manifold will warp. I was thinking that a "J" shaped pipe attached to the exhaust manifold, then the turbo on the other end would prevent this problem. Any ideas?
The distance isn't the issue, so much as weight. Turbos can be pretty heavy and red-hot cast iron is not the best thing to support it. I'm going with a J-shaped pipe off a reproduction stock manifold, but there is a flex joint in the pipe so that the pipe doesn't support the weight of the turbo. Instead it will be supported by a bracket attached to the power steering pump area. I will let you know how this works out.Previously I had used Wayne's cut and welded manifold. By the time I started the GT40 installation, over 50% of the weld area had cracked from heat and supporting the weight of the turbo. Quote: 6. Turbo lube & cool. The turbo I bought is both water cooled and oil lubricated. Is there any special place I should "tap into" the cooling and oiling system to ensure adequate flow? Will a simple "T" fitting get the job done?
For oil, I'm using a tee at the pressure sending unit, and returned it to a fitting drilled into the side of the block below the water jacket. In retrospect, the block mounted fitting was a mistake; better to put it in the top of the oil pan above the oil level.For water cooling, my previous turbo used a tee in the heater hose supply line for supply and a return to the top of the radiator using a fitting from a smog device I didn't need. (My current turbo has no water fittings.) Quote: 7. Speaking of the turbo that I bought... I have been told by two people that the turbo and intercooler that I have is to small for a slant 6 application. The turbo and intercooler has only about 1500 mile on it and is in like new condition. It was removed from a Mitsubishi Eclipse GS-T 2.0 liter, 16 valve vehicle. Although the turbo is smaller that I would have liked, my thoughts were that first, the turbo is like new, second, there will be virtually no turbo lag and third, the SL6 is a low reeving motor. I am concerned that any larger of a turbo, by the time and boost has been created the motor will already be at it's red-line. Any thoughts on this?
Well, it's bigger than a TE04H, but it will be somewhat marginal for a slant six. My TE04H would spool up at 1,500 RPM and could hit 10 psi of boost there, but would be out of breath by 3,000 RPM. A turbo that makes its peak boost well below your torque converter stall speed is far worse than a turbo with too much lag. The turbo you have won't be quite as bad as the TE04H, but it'll still make boost well below the redline. It depends on whether you want all out horsepower or a low speed turbo that behaves more like the stock ones in a K-car, spooling up quickly but not really being able to hold their performance to the redline.
|
|
| Author: | Glenn Gatley [ Fri Aug 10, 2007 5:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Holy Information Batman!!! |
Man you guys ROCK. It's people like yourself and sites such as this one that makes it a pleasure!! All of the information is wonderful, as are the links to past similar conversations. I will take your comments seriously and will post along the way as my project progresses. Again, thanks for all the information!! Sincerely, Glenn Gatley |
|
| Page 1 of 1 | All times are UTC-08:00 |
| Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited https://www.phpbb.com/ |
|