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Oil Pump
https://www.slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24837		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  mszauner [ Sun Sep 09, 2007 6:35 am ]
Post subject:  Oil Pump
Just when I thought things were going fine, the oil pump went out on the 73 Duster with 225. The engine block is circa late 70's or early 80's. I was happy to see the pump was external. However, the motor mount prevents me from fully extracting the pump. I loosened the mounts and slowly jacked up the front of the engine but still no luck. How far can I raise the front of the engine without causing problems to the tranny or other components? It looks like I need close to 3 inches.

I just know there is a special place in hell for the designer of this engine. EVERY piece that requires maintenance or replacement is on the side with NO ROOM while nothing is on the side with a mile of space. With that in mind, I am off to church because right now I do not feel too holy.

As always thanks for the help.

BTW, I did notice there was a piece of plastic like a piece of a pipe nipple lodged in the pump. No idea where it came from but probably the reason the pump is out. How could that have gotten in there through the screen? Perhaps I need to also drop the pan and check on the screen and clean the pan. It was off not long ago to replace the gasket.
Author:  SlantSixDan [ Sun Sep 09, 2007 7:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Oil Pump
Quote:
Just when I thought things were going fine, the oil pump went out on the 73 Duster with 225. The engine block is circa late 70's or early 80's. I was happy to see the pump was external. However, the motor mount prevents me from fully extracting the pump. I loosened the mounts and slowly jacked up the front of the engine but still no luck. How far can I raise the front of the engine without causing problems to the tranny or other components? It looks like I need close to 3 inches.
No problem. Undo the RH engine mount entirely, rather than just loosening it. Place a sturdy board between your floor jack and the engine oil pan, and go ahead and lift the engine the necessary few inches. Piece of cake.
Quote:
I just know there is a special place in hell for the designer of this engine.
You're not going to get much agreement or make many friends here with that kind of attitude.
Quote:
EVERY piece that requires maintenance or replacement is on the side with NO ROOM
Horsepuckey. Own a '60-'62 A-body and then maybe you'll have a little room (but only a little) to gripe about no room. You have a '73; there's plenty of room. About the only thing on your '73 that requires regular maintenance or replacement and could potentially be a small nuisance (but only a small one) is the oil filter, and if that's bothering you, put in a remote filter kit and quit bellyaching.
Quote:
while nothing is on the side with a mile of space.
Nothing except the manifolds, the carburetor, the starter, the power steering pump, the a/c compressor... :roll:
Quote:
I did notice there was a piece of plastic like a piece of a pipe nipple lodged in the pump.
Lodged where in the pump?
Author:  slantzilla [ Sun Sep 09, 2007 9:14 am ]
Post subject: 
You can get the pump out, but it is not the most fun thing you'll ever do. Dan is right, pull the motor mount and carefully jack the engine up, but also pull the bolt out of the trans crossmember to gain a little more wiggle room.

As for plastic inside the motor, the only plastic in there would be the distributor drive gear and the timing chain gears. If the distributor gear is intact it almost has to be timing gear pieces.

One other thught, could the plastic be something from an oil filter's guts? :?
Author:  Shaker223 [ Sun Sep 09, 2007 9:44 am ]
Post subject: 
Maybe it is a hardend valve seal that broke and found its way down.
Author:  mszauner [ Sun Sep 09, 2007 12:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Sorry
Sorry if I offended but after all the other gyrations on that pump I was more than a little frustrated. What if I grind a bit off the mount as well so I don't have to raise the engine as high?
Author:  vynn3 [ Sun Sep 09, 2007 1:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Oil Pump
Quote:
I just know there is a special place in hell for the designer of this engine.
Quote:
You're not going to get much agreement or make many friends here with that kind of attitude.
But you made one, and I agree with mszauner. Having had to replace my oil pump the day after I started my new engine because of oil pump failure, I HATE the oil pump placement on a slant, as well as the distributer placement. I'd rather pull it from the middle of the oil pan, like on a V8 (been there, done that). Filter replacement is no big deal if you use the big socket-style filter wrench and a long extension.

Trying to get the pump out of the side of the block, even with BOTH motor mounts disconnected and the engine jacked up till the bellhousing hit the top of the trans tunnel, was excrutiating, and the worst part is I ended up with a leak afterwards because it was so awkward trying to get the new one in. That means I'll have to do it all over again, or keep a close eye on the oil level.

I like the extra stroke of a slant, but having worked on a Chebby straight six, I GREATLY prefer it for maintenance/repairs. A V8 is even easier than a slant. I don't feel that's knocking slants, just pointing out a disadvantage. If it's no big deal to the old pros, great for them. But I HATE working on the passenger side of a slant.

FYI, check the drive gear on your new pump. If it's "interference fit" and not keyed to the shaft, get a spot weld between them. That's where my brand new (Melling) pump failed, and the new one (Sealed Power boxed, Melling pump inside) was the same design. I had the local muffler shop spot weld it for free. No problems yet.

Good luck. slants have their downsides, but they can grow on you after a while.
Author:  68barracuda [ Sun Sep 09, 2007 3:28 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
I HATE the oil pump placement on a slant, as well as the distributer placement.
Hells bells chaps - we here in rhd Country have the steering box on that side as well :shock:

BUT our cars came from ma Mopar with a remote oil filter, and the dizzy down there is not much of a hastle - WHEN you have electronic ignition that is

If you want fun try a Australian V8 CL Regal SE - It has the steering box with a exhaust manifold as well :twisted: :twisted:

But the old slant grows on you - the grin factor is unreal

Enjoy :D
Author:  4doordart [ Sun Sep 09, 2007 3:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Question...
Don't mind me, I'm a newbie here (and with restoration in general), but how difficult is it to pull the /6? I mean, like for this oil pump thing, couldn't you unbolt the tranny (or the drive shaft?), pull the harness and just hoist the engine up and out some?

Speaking of which, how does one pull one of these /6's? Can you pull it with the tranny attached? What/where do you hook to?

My oldest boy stopped over today and was wondering how hard it would be to pull the /6 to clean it up and refinish it. He's into it! We've got all the stuff here to do it, and have pulled/installed a number of Chevy V-8s together.

Enjoy your evening!

Frank
Author:  DusterIdiot [ Sun Sep 09, 2007 3:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Yep...
Quote:
You can get the pump out, but it is not the most fun thing you'll ever do.

I won't belly ache over this task, nor much of any task with a slant...try changing the starter on a big block car (try doing it while the engine is hot and you have a 5 minute time frame for your pit stop).

-D.Idiot
Author:  mszauner [ Sun Sep 09, 2007 5:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Correct
You are correct, each engine has its good and bad tasks. It's just that EVERYTHING I have had to replace has been on that blasted side.

Now, I unhooked both mounts and jacked from the pan, I went as far up until the valve cover hit the firewall. While it was being jacked up, I observed underneath to make sure the tranny seemed to be without stress. The cross member bolt allows it to pivot up at the front. HOWEVER, in spite of all of that, the pump STILL will not come out. It will clear the mount but not the frame just beneath it. So, I also noticed that when jacking, the opposite side went up more than the desired side. I presume it is because of the weight on that end being top heavy. Anyway, I have to get to New York in the morning. When I return Friday I plan to use a floor hoist and hook onto just the one side and perhaps supplement that with a jack under the pan. My intent is to see if I can get that side up even with the other or higher. At least high enough to get that thing out...then another 12 hours to put the new one in I am sure.

Is it better to only loosen the one mount on the side of the pump and pull that side up with the hoist. Any other suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Also, I have only that side up on a stand. Am I better to have both sides up for this operation?
Author:  Bren67Cuda904 [ Sun Sep 09, 2007 5:26 pm ]
Post subject: 
Leave the driverside motor mount attached. This will cause the engine to "roll" when lifted and should work.
Author:  SlantSixDan [ Sun Sep 09, 2007 5:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Oil Pump
Quote:
Having had to replace my oil pump the day after I started my new engine because of oil pump failure, I HATE the oil pump placement on a slant, as well as the distributer placement. I'd rather pull it from the middle of the oil pan
You'd rather lift the whole engine and/or pull the steering linkage all apart to excavate a buried internal oil pump and hope you don't create new leaks when replacing the pan gasket, than just lift the right side of the engine to remove/replace an external pump?

I think you crazy, maybe! :shrug: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Author:  SlantSixDan [ Sun Sep 09, 2007 5:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Yep...
Quote:
I won't belly ache over this task
I might bellyache over this task if it needed doing more often than once every thirty years on average! :shock:
Quote:
try changing the starter on a big block car
...or a V8 A-body...
Author:  vynn3 [ Sun Sep 09, 2007 7:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Oil Pump
Quote:
You'd rather lift the whole engine and/or pull the steering linkage all apart to excavate a buried internal oil pump and hope you don't create new leaks when replacing the pan gasket, than just lift the right side of the engine to remove/replace an external pump?

I think you crazy, maybe! :shrug: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
"Just lift the right side of the engine to remove /replace and external pump" took 7 1/2 hours of work.

The last time I changed the oil pump in a small block Mopar was a (granted, messy) 6 hours. Granted, that was 20 years ago, and it wasn't easy, but everything went the way it was supposed to.

The slant, on the other hand, didn't move far enough with only one motor mount connected, the passenger side didn't move as far as the driver's side with both disconnected, (same as mszauner - engine lifts crooked, no matter where I place the block of wood/jack), and when I finally shoved the engine far enough while inserting the pump and let the engine back down, it took and hour and a half to get the motor mount studs to drop back into the holes. In addition to your instructions, I had to disconnect the tranny cooler lines, unbolt the fan shroud, remove the valve cover for clearance around the blower motor (after I ripped the rubber donut mount), drain the coolant and disconnect the upper radiator hose, all to provide enough vertical movement to get the pump out.

So yes, Dan, I'm crazy 'cause I don't like the slant oil pump location, and I'm wimpy 'cause I prefer power steering and power brakes in an A-body. But that's the way it is. Accept that my opinions, no matter how unreasonable, sometimes differ from yours. :)

If this pump fails, I'll fly you down to Dallas to change it for me. You can warm up in the warm Texas sun for a few days, and I can watch an expert at work. Deal?

Meanwhile, I sympathize with mszauner. Maybe the stock pumps don't go out for 30 years, but I suspect the crappy interference new ones could be problematic much sooner unless extra precautions are taken.
Author:  dakight [ Sun Sep 09, 2007 7:44 pm ]
Post subject: 
I'f I'm not mistaken, the OEM pumps were a little thinner than the typical replacement. That just might make a difference.
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