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How to make an A833 OD quiet
https://www.slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=37137		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  RossKinder [ Thu Sep 17, 2009 12:50 am ]
Post subject:  How to make an A833 OD quiet
I pulled the 833 when the OD got noisier and I took off the cover plate.. A general inspection shows the tranny to look good. The only rough looking gear is the big 1-2 gear where the reverse mates into it. Also I got a second noise I need to ID.

That noise seems to sound familiar, but I can't quite place it. I pick it up at a very slow speed, say just starting to roll on a down slope (clutch in or out) as a sort of clunk-uh clunk-uh, almost as is something falls down somewhere, then falls back when it turns over. At one time I thought I was hearing a bad U-joint, but that's solid.

But it very quickly speeds up to a teck-a teck-a teck-a, then tickitickitickiticki. At any actual driving speed I hear nothing of it. Of course this is all reversed if I'm rolling to a stop at a light. But it was getting louder... so I pulled it on the rack. Any ideas what this one is?

Quick question. When I see a small raised area stamped 1-5-75, is there reason I should not think that is the date of manufacture? Everything else about it falls into the 1975 category. The seller said it was out of a Volare.

Now to the OD whine as I called it. First, as whines go, it's a low one. At the slower speed end, it's more like a growl - for whatever that's worth.

The front bearing seems pretty tight. Anyway, if there were a problem there I'd think it would growl/whine in both 3 and OD, not in OD and a little in 2.

It occurs to me that the sleeve gear that runs between 2 and OD could conceivably be rubbing on the side of a cluster gear gear close by - if it got moved to far rearward. Comment?

Also the aft inside splines in the sleeve gear look pretty rough when it is all the way back. (I read afterward that one can invite a special sort of hell by sliding it that fat back) Any chance the growl/whine could come from there?

The synchro rings look a bit like they've had a hard life.

I have taken some pictures and can take more if anyone has a special point to check.

Sooooooooo... I didn't find anything that had printed on it "I'm the culprit" so I'd appreciate any suggestions anyone can muster.

Thanks

RK
Author:  emsvitil [ Thu Sep 17, 2009 1:00 am ]
Post subject: 
Quieter or noisier when the tranny fluid warms up?

Search for 'transmission rollover noise' on the internet.

It's from the meshing of the gears, and gets louder as the tranny oil thins.

(my toyota truck does this)
Author:  james longhurst [ Thu Sep 17, 2009 3:45 am ]
Post subject: 
From what I understand these transmissions can be a bit noisy due to the floating countershaft. That said, if your noise is most prevalent in 1, 2 and OD gears that's where I'd look. The countershaft gear rides on a set of needle bearings that could be the culprit.
Is this a trans that you've been through already, or one you bought used?

-James
Author:  RossKinder [ Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:49 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Quieter or noisier when the tranny fluid warms up?

Search for 'transmission rollover noise' on the internet.

It's from the meshing of the gears, and gets louder as the tranny oil thins.

(my toyota truck does this)
I don't detect any real change on warm up. If it gets louder it is by a very, very, very tiny fraction of the total noise. And a very (one and a half veries) tiny fraction of the increase over 2 or 3 days.

What few hits I got on transmission rollover noise described a very quiet sound - something you almost have to be listening carefully for. This is pretty quiet in 2, non-existent in 1 and definitely loud in OD.

Thanks

RK
Author:  RossKinder [ Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:10 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
From what I understand these transmissions can be a bit noisy due to the floating countershaft.
Hmm, a few days ago this tranny was described here as pretty quiet.
Quote:
That said, if your noise is most prevalent in 1, 2 and OD gears that's where I'd look.
1 - no noise at all.

2 - slight noise.

3 - no noise at all.

OD - easily heard at 65 with the windows down.
Quote:
The countershaft gear rides on a set of needle bearings that could be the culprit.
Needle bearings - sounds like I might as well go ahead and tear it down - if I can get my hands on a manual. I really don't want to get into this thing without something to read up on.
Quote:
Is this a trans that you've been through already, or one you bought used?

-James
I bought it used out of a 75 Volare. I think someone was into it because I found a lot of black RTV around the bearing retainer and cover plate.

Although the sealant where the counter shaft? comes through the front wall of the tranny was completely different. Perhaps they only put in new bearings.

Thanks

RK
Author:  bbbbbb9 [ Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:54 am ]
Post subject: 
Universal joint?
Author:  RossKinder [ Thu Sep 17, 2009 10:04 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Universal joint?
My first thought, but as I posted, it's solid (and new).

Thanks

RK
Author:  RossKinder [ Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:41 am ]
Post subject: 
OK, one question at a time.

Is it just too easy to find 1-5-75 stamped on the cover plate as the manufacturing date? Don't those things usually hide the date in a code?

RK
Author:  emsvitil [ Thu Sep 17, 2009 2:34 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:

1 - no noise at all.

2 - slight noise.

3 - no noise at all.

OD - easily heard at 65 with the windows down.

3 - there is no load on the countershaft

OD - the greatest load on the countershaft

2 - less load on the countershaft

1 - even less load on the countershaft (but > none)


Sound like something to do with the countershaft..........
Author:  DusterIdiot [ Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Ok...
You should be able to get a 1976 manual pretty cheap (I've got 3 and each cost from $10 for the most expensive, to $3 with no cover...), these pop up lots at auto swap meets, used book stores, garage sales...you can't miss the white book with blue and red on the cover...
The next thing to look at is the "articles" section on this board, the OD rebuild procedure is in the 4 speed article...this will supercede the manual as you will not have the 3 special tools they require to complete the job...you will be using the DF101 broomhandle peice, your large pliers, and your ingenuity...

Quote:
3 - there is no load on the countershaft

OD - the greatest load on the countershaft

2 - less load on the countershaft

1 - even less load on the countershaft (but > none)


Sound like something to do with the countershaft..........

This would be the best explaination, the OD is generally quiet with a little whine depending on the gear and which year you got (the early one's have a coarse gear pitch, and the later 1976+ dated ones have a finer gear pitch to them...you can tell by counting your OD countershaft gear and the mainshaft gear...)...all these "moan" in reverse at high rpm...

Ed has it nailed, in 3rd or direct the mainshaft and input shaft are locked together by the collar and are completely tied together with no stress on the countershaft... in the other gears, the input shaft sends the power to the counterchaft then back to the gear you selected... gear reduction at the lower gears doesn't put as much stress on 1 and 2...but in OD the countershaft riding on it's bearings will try to spread away from the mainshaft and not make perfect/tight contact/mesh with the teeth.
I'd probably whine too if someone put 215 ft/lbs of torque on me at 70 mph... :wink:


-D.Idiot
Author:  RossKinder [ Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ok...
Quote:
in OD the countershaft riding on it's bearings will try to spread away from the mainshaft and not make perfect/tight contact/mesh with the teeth.
I'd probably whine too if someone put 215 ft/lbs of torque on me at 70 mph... :wink:


-D.Idiot
That all sounds like normal operational sounds based on engineering. But that doesn't account for my OD being so much louder than others.

Thanks

RK
Author:  RossKinder [ Thu Sep 17, 2009 10:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Bad bearing
I pulled it apart. Whoever tore it down before apparently couldn't get the rear bearing out. When I gave the rear cluster a spin it sounded like a freight train going by. But why would that be loud only in OD?

Thanks

RK
Author:  emsvitil [ Fri Sep 18, 2009 5:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad bearing
Quote:
I pulled it apart. Whoever tore it down before apparently couldn't get the rear bearing out. When I gave the rear cluster a spin it sounded like a freight train going by. But why would that be loud only in OD?

Thanks

RK
Mainshaft or countershaft (out of curiousity)

With either, its becaust the greatest load on the rear bearings is when you're in OD. (partially from gear ratios, partially because that's where the OD gears mesh (I'm assuming 1 & 2 are the front and OD is the rear because that's all I've vers seen (never had a 833 apart))) and try to push away from each other
Author:  RossKinder [ Fri Sep 18, 2009 7:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bad bearing
Quote:
Mainshaft or countershaft (out of curiousity)
I figured I get bit on that one, not knowing the exact name of what I was talking about. All I have is the 7 pages from the Mitchell book and that is very cryptic.

When I said rear cluster I mean the whole pack of about 50 gears on the back shaft with a big bearing that presses into the tail cone. Before I got it out of the cone, when I spun that it was really loud.
Quote:
With either, its because the greatest load on the rear bearings is when you're in OD. (partially from gear ratios, partially because that's where the OD gears mesh (I'm assuming 1 & 2 are the front and OD is the rear because that's all I've vers seen (never had a 833 apart))) and try to push away from each other
Works for me. Now to find the best kit to put it back in play. I've seen kits from $69 to $229. (Wouldn't buy either if I could help it.)

Thanks

RK
Author:  emsvitil [ Fri Sep 18, 2009 4:03 pm ]
Post subject: 
Mainshaft is input shaft to output shaft (2 pieces).

Countershaft is the other one (not counting the shaft the reverse idler gear is on)
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