Slant Six Forum :: Injection Plate *PIC*

: Hey, I'm curious if there would be any demand
: for something like this. Its a plate with
: injector bores and fuel rail that would
: sandwich between your head and
: intake&exhaust manifolds. Might be a good
: option for those a little put off by the
: task of fabricating their own injector rail
: and installing bungs. Would also allow
: people to play with different intake styles
: without replumbing everything.
:
: more pictures at
: <A HREF="http://photos.yahoo.com/haskelltrash">h ... lltrash</A>

: Hey Matt,
:
: Cool beans. If the price were right, I'd
: consider buying one or two. As you know,
: you're my kind of nut...
:
: Is this your new route for the Valiant?
:
: Lou

: Hey Matt,
: I would buy one or maybe 2 if the price is
: right. I think this would be good for the
: nitrous injectors on a direct port setup. I
: dont want to make holes in my intake and i
: cant go with a plate system because i have
: dual Webers. Did you make a prototype yet? I
: would like to come by and talk with you and
: check it out when you arent busy. (Im in
: Oxnard, remember?)

: Hey,
:
: No I haven't made one yet. Just scketched it up
: the other day. But it looks like I will
: soon. I'm going to be gone for a little over
: a week on business starting sunday. I
: probably won't be able to get started on a
: real plate untill I return. I have a couple
: details I want to add, like a third mounting
: screw on the other side of the fuel rail,
: between cyls 3&4, and some standoffs to
: properly locate the fuel rail. I might
: increase the port size a little, right now
: it's just about a perfect match with a
: felpro gasket. Injector pocket depth is a
: guess, I need to enter measurements of a
: real injector. I also want to see if I can
: go to a little thinner plate, or lean the
: injectors over more without causing any
: interfearance or assembly problems.
:
: Yea, we should get together, do you still have
: my phone #?
:
: mh-

: I think it might be a good idea to have the
: ports raised up, because when you port a
: head you'll likely be raising the ports for
: a straighter shot at the back of the valve
: head.

: Matt,
: This looks like a good idea and I believe you
: are on the right track. Have you done any
: analysis on what affect adding this part
: will have on other components of the
: induction system? Will the longer studs be
: strong enough to handle the additional
: stress due to a longer cantileaver? When
: heated, longer studs are going to grow in
: length more than short studs (coefficient of
: thermal expansion). Speaking of thermal
: expansion, what effect will it have on your
: solid plate? Will it grow enough to break
: the outboard studs? The areas around the
: exhaust ports are going to heat up much
: higher than the areas around the intake
: ports; will this uneven heating warp or
: crack the plate? You may have already
: thought of these questions and incorporated
: them into your design. I wish you great
: success on this product.
:
: L. Hale

: Good questions
: Many things in the slant were overbuilt - just
: look at that 'beefy' bottom end as proof.
: Will the stock studs be okay? I think so but
: if they're not, its relatively easy to
: retrofit with high strength stuff.
: On the topic of thermal expansion, I like your
: idea of elongated holes - you might also
: consider making 2 pieces, each handling 3
: cylinders.
: Since I believe you said you'd be using a water
: jet cutter, you could consider other wacky
: tricks to handle exhaust thermal gradients a
: few of which I've sketched below. The pencil
: thin jet could cut thermal expansion pockets
: around exhaust ports or just keep on
: producing expansion slots.
: I'm curious to see the final design you arrive
: at and how things turn out. Onwards &
: upwards . . .

: How much would it cost? I'd probably be
: interested in one if I ever decide to fuel
: inject my turbo Dart (which I probably
: will!).

Author:	Matt [ Wed Jul 31, 2002 11:45 am ]
Post subject:	Injection Plate PIC
Hey, I'm curious if there would be any demand for something like this. Its a plate with injector bores and fuel rail that would sandwich between your head and intake&exhaust manifolds. Might be a good option for those a little put off by the task of fabricating their own injector rail and installing bungs. Would also allow people to play with different intake styles without replumbing everything. more pictures at <A HREF="http://photos.yahoo.com/haskelltrash">h ... lltrash</A> mhaskell@reliant.com

Author:	Dart270 [ Wed Jul 31, 2002 12:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Injection Plate
Quote: : Hey, I'm curious if there would be any demand : for something like this. Its a plate with : injector bores and fuel rail that would : sandwich between your head and : intake&exhaust manifolds. Might be a good : option for those a little put off by the : task of fabricating their own injector rail : and installing bungs. Would also allow : people to play with different intake styles : without replumbing everything. : : more pictures at : <A HREF="http://photos.yahoo.com/haskelltrash">h ... lltrash</A> Hey Matt, Cool beans. If the price were right, I'd consider buying one or two. As you know, you're my kind of nut... Is this your new route for the Valiant? Lou lmadsen@email.unc.edu

Author:	Matt [ Wed Jul 31, 2002 3:25 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Injection Plate
Quote: : Hey Matt, : : Cool beans. If the price were right, I'd : consider buying one or two. As you know, : you're my kind of nut... : : Is this your new route for the Valiant? : : Lou Hey Lou, House projects have taken over for a little while. But I'll probably investigate this a little more, make one and send some pictures around with it on a mock up head.. I'll let everyone know as things progress. I also plan have some header flanges made up in stainless at the same time. mh- mhaskell@reliant.com

Author:	DusterNut [ Wed Jul 31, 2002 10:13 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Injection Plate
Hey Matt, I would buy one or maybe 2 if the price is right. I think this would be good for the nitrous injectors on a direct port setup. I dont want to make holes in my intake and i cant go with a plate system because i have dual Webers. Did you make a prototype yet? I would like to come by and talk with you and check it out when you arent busy. (Im in Oxnard, remember?) TommyB1515@aol.com

Author:	Matt [ Thu Aug 01, 2002 7:16 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Injection Plate
Quote: : Hey Matt, : I would buy one or maybe 2 if the price is : right. I think this would be good for the : nitrous injectors on a direct port setup. I : dont want to make holes in my intake and i : cant go with a plate system because i have : dual Webers. Did you make a prototype yet? I : would like to come by and talk with you and : check it out when you arent busy. (Im in : Oxnard, remember?) Hey, No I haven't made one yet. Just scketched it up the other day. But it looks like I will soon. I'm going to be gone for a little over a week on business starting sunday. I probably won't be able to get started on a real plate untill I return. I have a couple details I want to add, like a third mounting screw on the other side of the fuel rail, between cyls 3&4, and some standoffs to properly locate the fuel rail. I might increase the port size a little, right now it's just about a perfect match with a felpro gasket. Injector pocket depth is a guess, I need to enter measurements of a real injector. I also want to see if I can go to a little thinner plate, or lean the injectors over more without causing any interfearance or assembly problems. Yea, we should get together, do you still have my phone #? mh- mhaskell@reliant.com

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Author:	bud L. [ Thu Aug 01, 2002 8:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Injection Plate
Quote: : Hey, : : No I haven't made one yet. Just scketched it up : the other day. But it looks like I will : soon. I'm going to be gone for a little over : a week on business starting sunday. I : probably won't be able to get started on a : real plate untill I return. I have a couple : details I want to add, like a third mounting : screw on the other side of the fuel rail, : between cyls 3&4, and some standoffs to : properly locate the fuel rail. I might : increase the port size a little, right now : it's just about a perfect match with a : felpro gasket. Injector pocket depth is a : guess, I need to enter measurements of a : real injector. I also want to see if I can : go to a little thinner plate, or lean the : injectors over more without causing any : interfearance or assembly problems. : : Yea, we should get together, do you still have : my phone #? : : mh- I think it might be a good idea to have the ports raised up, because when you port a head you'll likely be raising the ports for a straighter shot at the back of the valve head. fglmopar@aol.com

Author:	Matt [ Fri Aug 02, 2002 6:43 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Injection Plate
Quote: : I think it might be a good idea to have the : ports raised up, because when you port a : head you'll likely be raising the ports for : a straighter shot at the back of the valve : head. That would be an easy change. I assumed most folks would want slightly larger than stock. The first one will go on my non ported 170, so I'll make the ports close to the stock size for now. future versions will probably be a little bigger. First plate is on the way, I'll be out of town for a week or so, but I expect it to be done when I get back. Although I've come to expect delays. I'll keep folks posted. matt- mhaskell@reliant.com

Author:	L Hale [ Fri Aug 02, 2002 11:04 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Injection Plate
Matt, This looks like a good idea and I believe you are on the right track. Have you done any analysis on what affect adding this part will have on other components of the induction system? Will the longer studs be strong enough to handle the additional stress due to a longer cantileaver? When heated, longer studs are going to grow in length more than short studs (coefficient of thermal expansion). Speaking of thermal expansion, what effect will it have on your solid plate? Will it grow enough to break the outboard studs? The areas around the exhaust ports are going to heat up much higher than the areas around the intake ports; will this uneven heating warp or crack the plate? You may have already thought of these questions and incorporated them into your design. I wish you great success on this product. L. Hale ldhale@granitecity.com

Author:	Matt [ Fri Aug 02, 2002 12:13 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Injection Plate
Quote: : Matt, : This looks like a good idea and I believe you : are on the right track. Have you done any : analysis on what affect adding this part : will have on other components of the : induction system? Will the longer studs be : strong enough to handle the additional : stress due to a longer cantileaver? When : heated, longer studs are going to grow in : length more than short studs (coefficient of : thermal expansion). Speaking of thermal : expansion, what effect will it have on your : solid plate? Will it grow enough to break : the outboard studs? The areas around the : exhaust ports are going to heat up much : higher than the areas around the intake : ports; will this uneven heating warp or : crack the plate? You may have already : thought of these questions and incorporated : them into your design. I wish you great : success on this product. : : L. Hale Thanks for the feedback. No calculations done. Really don't intend to on this project. Main goal was to offer something that allows folks to swap in efi without the headache of fabing everything themselves, and to give my brain another thing to be distracted by besides work. Runner length increase is a factor, larger issue might be port size & shape variations between head, plate & intake, thats why I'm going to make the port sizes near stock, so each person can modify to fit their idea of perfection. The plate is 1" thick, the added leverage is minimal when considering the combined strength of the studs. Assuming similar to grade 5 or higher, that is something like 120k-psi tensile, figure that with the combined crossectional area and I doubt you'll be popping bolts due to the greater cantileaver. But I didn't calculate anything. Didn't think about thermal expansion of the bolts. You're right total growth will be greater due to the greater length. Might want some good H-K or even ARP bolts that stretch and maintain some elasticity when torqued. I'll just have to experiment with that one. Still not too concerned though. Expansion of the plate has been dealt with. The center top bolt, between cyl 3 & 4, has minimal clearance. It locates the plate. the rest of the top holes, are elongated for/aft, but are close toleranced top and bottom to keep the plate lined up with the ports. The bottom holes have the same for/aft freedom, as well as a little more clearance top & bottom of the studs to allow for some expansion of the plate verticaly too. It's being H20 jet machined, so these details are real easy to incorporate. Damage to the aluminum plate due to exhaust is unlikely. This really isn't that much different than the aluminum exhaust port adapters some of the chebby & phord guys run when using weird heads with conventional exhausts, except mine will have injectors. Heat soak into the injectors is an unknown. I can make arguments both ways. It is away from the water jacket, and somehwat insulated from the head by the gasket, but is that enough to be a problem, when such a small area is subjected to the exhaust heat? I'll just have to install one and see. Dangling some thermocouples in there would be interesing, but i'd have to do it on a stock setup to make any data valuable. If I make one and the exhaust ports cause problems, then I'll hack it down and weld it into an intake and scrap this idea. Uncertainty makes life fun.. Later.. Matt- mhaskell@reliant.com

Author:	Matt Cramer [ Fri Aug 02, 2002 3:50 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Injection Plate
How much would it cost? I'd probably be interested in one if I ever decide to fuel inject my turbo Dart (which I probably will!).

Author:	Al T [ Fri Aug 02, 2002 4:23 pm ]
Post subject:	Injection Plate - Thermal Expansion PIC
Good questions Many things in the slant were overbuilt - just look at that 'beefy' bottom end as proof. Will the stock studs be okay? I think so but if they're not, its relatively easy to retrofit with high strength stuff. On the topic of thermal expansion, I like your idea of elongated holes - you might also consider making 2 pieces, each handling 3 cylinders. Since I believe you said you'd be using a water jet cutter, you could consider other wacky tricks to handle exhaust thermal gradients a few of which I've sketched below. The pencil thin jet could cut thermal expansion pockets around exhaust ports or just keep on producing expansion slots. I'm curious to see the final design you arrive at and how things turn out. Onwards & upwards . . . <img src="http://slantsix.org/photos/sl6injectionplate.jpg" width=425> ahtoews@shaw.ca

Author:	Matt [ Fri Aug 02, 2002 4:34 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Injection Plate - Thermal Expansion
Quote: : Good questions : Many things in the slant were overbuilt - just : look at that 'beefy' bottom end as proof. : Will the stock studs be okay? I think so but : if they're not, its relatively easy to : retrofit with high strength stuff. : On the topic of thermal expansion, I like your : idea of elongated holes - you might also : consider making 2 pieces, each handling 3 : cylinders. : Since I believe you said you'd be using a water : jet cutter, you could consider other wacky : tricks to handle exhaust thermal gradients a : few of which I've sketched below. The pencil : thin jet could cut thermal expansion pockets : around exhaust ports or just keep on : producing expansion slots. : I'm curious to see the final design you arrive : at and how things turn out. Onwards & : upwards . . . I like the idea of the slots around the exhaust.. real interesting, I'll think about that some more. Initial sketch is at the shop, but I won't hear back untill I return from my trip in a week or so. mhaskell@reliant.com

Author:	Matt [ Fri Aug 02, 2002 4:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Cost
Quote: : How much would it cost? I'd probably be : interested in one if I ever decide to fuel : inject my turbo Dart (which I probably : will!). Don't know yet. I'm still working it out. I'm going to be gone for a little more that a week, and I don't think I'll have much email availability untill I return. As soon as I figure it out, I'll let people know. matt- mhaskell@reliant.com

Author:	DusterNut [ Fri Aug 02, 2002 9:13 pm ]
Post subject:	injector plate
Quote: : Hey, : : No I haven't made one yet. Just scketched it up : the other day. But it looks like I will : soon. I'm going to be gone for a little over : a week on business starting sunday. I : probably won't be able to get started on a : real plate untill I return. I have a couple : details I want to add, like a third mounting : screw on the other side of the fuel rail, : between cyls 3&4, and some standoffs to : properly locate the fuel rail. I might : increase the port size a little, right now : it's just about a perfect match with a : felpro gasket. Injector pocket depth is a : guess, I need to enter measurements of a : real injector. I also want to see if I can : go to a little thinner plate, or lean the : injectors over more without causing any : interfearance or assembly problems. : : Yea, we should get together, do you still have : my phone #? : : mh- No, I lost your phone #. I will be swaping a 4-speed tranny in place of the auto in my car so i wont be able to come for a while. This might be a really good product if it all works out. Bolt on fuel injection or direct port nitrous. tommyb1515@aol.com

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Author:	Middy [ Tue Feb 18, 2003 7:57 pm ]
Post subject:	this is a great idea!
This would be my first post I came to this board from .com I have a 66 Fury and I'm thinking bout efi I was looking through old posts to see if I could find somewhere what the TB's with injectors were on Tom Drakes Simca. Has any progress been made on this in another thread that I haven't come to yet?