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Won't start, driving me nuts
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Author:  Oldspowered [ Wed May 12, 2010 7:13 am ]
Post subject:  Won't start, driving me nuts
This may be long but I'll try to include everything I have done.

1975 Duster with rebuilt engine has been sitting for two years. I take 2 gallons of fresh gas and a fresh battery with me and it cranks. I drive it 36 miles with it not wanting to idle (having to pedal the gas and toss it in neutral at stops). Get the car home and I search this forum. I cleaned the idle tubes of the Carter 2-bbl and now it idles fine, fantastic even.

I drive the car 2 miles and it won't get up to highway speed now. All I have done is cleaned the idle tubes. Have the car towed home. After a few days it cranks with fresh gas and a jump. Idles fine, no power above that.

I test the fuel pump, plenty of pressure. The fuel filter never fills with fuel though. I pressure test the line between the tank and the pump, no leaks. I take apart the carb to make sure it is clean inside. I notice it has been rebuilt. Accelerator pump gives two healthy squirts. Needles seem to rise on the seat correctly. All passages seem to be clear in the carb.

It will now start but barely runs and misses like hell. I checked the timing and it seemed to be set at 12-degree BTDC. I set it at 6-degrees BTDC. Runs better now, still no guts above idle. I adjust the idle air screws all the way out and start adjusting them back in. No difference.

I checked the spark from the original system. Seems weak. Install new resistor. Runs the same. I planned on changing to HEI anyway so I go ahead with the conversion. HEI installed, strong spark, still no start.

Last night I double checked the timing. I put the engine at 5-degree BTDC and pulled #1 plug wire to check for spark. I adjusted the distributor until I got a consistent spark (engine not running). I then pulled the cap and verified the rotor button location (pointing at #1 terminal). Still no start, even on ether. Not even a backfire. I pulled the distributor cap and aligned the reluctor ring to the pickup this time. No start.

The timing it dead-nuts on. I checked for timing chain stretch and did not detect any. The distributor is rotated past the adjusting range of the upper bolt slot with the #1 terminal pointed right at the fuel line (45-degrees away from the inner fender, not directly at the inner fender). The bottom distributor bolt is tight (never touched it).

I took some of the gas from the carb bowl and lit it, burns no problem. The bowl does not seem too full but I have not checked the float level with a gauge yet.

I have the HEI system powered straight off the battery with the system grounding back to the negative battery terminal. I have also tried grounding the HEI back to the alternator body. No difference. I cleaned the battery terminals and the connections to them. I have checked continuity of the HEI system and everything is correct.

I did check the resistance of the distributor pickup. When I tested it with my meter (whichs reads ohms x1k) it pegged the meter. Per my manual I should only be reading 150-900 ohms.

I removed and cleaned all the plugs (removing the washers that were on them). I gapped the plugs at .035. I pulled the coil wire while cranking it over and got 1/2" long sparks to ground.

I have plugged all the vacuum ports on the carburetor. I made sure the port above the bowl was not plugged (vapor return I believe).

The resistor is bypassed at the firewall per the HEI installation instructions. Per my understanding by having the HEI running off the battery itself it should be completely stand-alone from the rest of the car. I am fairly sure the HEI conversion is not the problem, but I am suspect of the distributor pickup.

Sorry for the long post but I wanted to make sure I gave all the info I could. I will continue searching the forum for ideas but at this point the idea of just throwing parts at it is looking good (starting with a new distributor assembly).
Author:  Andy's GT [ Wed May 12, 2010 9:17 am ]
Post subject: 
when we first got my dart (had been sitting 9 years) it sputtered and wouldnt get up to speed etc...stalled lots. rebuilt carb, super six later, rebuilt that, hei, some other stuff, and still hit and miss. a lot of the problems were fixed by a newer sending unit. that one started leaking and so was less than ideal. last year i replaced the gas tank, sending unit, and the line from the tank to carb, and cleaned up the carb again, as well as put in a new fuel filter. it just had gotten so gunked up, also the sock would periodically get clogged up on the end of the sending unit. so looking into the fuel line/tank/sending unit (not sure how to test pressure but could be sucking up junk, then it falls when the pump isnt pulling. just a thought!
Author:  SlantSixDan [ Wed May 12, 2010 9:24 am ]
Post subject: 
The fuel filter isn't supposed to fill up with fuel. I think you're (over)due for a complete carb teardown, cleanup, and rebuild. Carburetor operation and repair manuals and links to training movies and carb repair/modification threads are posted here for free download. I also think there's crud and water in your fuel tank.
Author:  KBB_of_TMC [ Wed May 12, 2010 9:30 am ]
Post subject: 
I also would suspect fuel problems and would carefully inspect the tank-to-pump line for any signs of pinhole leaks letting air get sucked in - even a little leak can cause big problems. Then I would like to 2nd that you check the fuel sock in the tank - I've seen them get very brittle with age and break - and if it looks bad also blow out the fuel line to clear any debris. I've also seen the carb inlets stick and give problems after sitting a lot, so it might be well worth rebuilding the carb.

Don't forget the heat riser valve; they often get stuck with age.

May I also suggest you make sure the cent & vac advance work OK. I wouldn't expect any problems from the rest of the ignition system from sitting around.
Author:  Oldspowered [ Wed May 12, 2010 10:14 am ]
Post subject: 
I knew you folks would have some ideas.

The carb rebuild is a good idea. In looking at the carb I'm not sure if I trust it to have been rebuilt correctly the last time. I'm concerned about missing parts and such. I am hoping to make this my daily driver so I was already researching swapping on a Weber 32/26 DGEV. I know rebuilding the Carter is MUCH cheaper, but if I am looking to swap the carb anyway I might as well start new.

I have been thinking of just dropping the tank. I have cleaned out many fuel tanks, this one should really be done anyway if I am going to daily drive it.

Now about the heat riser valve. Does that actually pass exhaust gasses into the intake tract? Or is it like a heat stove and just warm the intake manifold without actually mixing? The valve moves freely, but I have not closely inspected it.

I did take the EGR valve off and rotate it 180-degrees to make sure there was no flow there.

I still don't understand why it wouldn't fire on ether.
Author:  SlantSixDan [ Wed May 12, 2010 10:35 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Now about the heat riser valve. Does that actually pass exhaust gasses into the intake tract?
No, it just heats the intake for proper fuel vapourisation. It is not causing your issue (and wouldn't be even if it were stuck, which you say yours is not).

If you have pulled the distributor, it's really easy to get its installation wrong. See here.
Author:  Oldspowered [ Wed May 12, 2010 2:39 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Quote:
Now about the heat riser valve. Does that actually pass exhaust gasses into the intake tract?
No, it just heats the intake for proper fuel vapourisation. It is not causing your issue (and wouldn't be even if it were stuck, which you say yours is not).

If you have pulled the distributor, it's really easy to get its installation wrong. See here.
I have not pulled the distributor, but I had considered buying a new replacement assembly. I read on post lamenting not replacing the entire distributor on a particularly odd running engine. Plus it is only $56.

I didn't think the heat riser valve would have been a problem, but I wanted to ask anyway.

I am wondering if the distributor is one tooth off. With the timing set it seems that the distributor is rotated awfully far clockwise.
Author:  SlantSixDan [ Wed May 12, 2010 5:02 pm ]
Post subject: 
There is a second bolt holding the distributor hold-down plate to the distributor body, accessible with a "Z"-shaped wrench or by removing the distributor. Where are you finding the $56 price? If that's for a parts store "remanufactured" distributor, don't bother; they're junk. Much better brand-new distributors are available from Old Car Parts Northwest.
Author:  Oldspowered [ Thu May 13, 2010 7:00 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
There is a second bolt holding the distributor hold-down plate to the distributor body, accessible with a "Z"-shaped wrench or by removing the distributor. Where are you finding the $56 price? If that's for a parts store "remanufactured" distributor, don't bother; they're junk. Much better brand-new distributors are available from Old Car Parts Northwest.
I checked the second bolt and it was tight, so I am hoping it has not moved.

Yeah, the $56 was from a parts store. I should have known it was a reman. I had read on here before about the Car Parts Northwest stash. Now that I think about it the pickup assembly itself may be the culprit. The wiring is very brittle where the pickup lead exist the distributor body. I might be getting a short right there (which would explain the ohm meter pegging).

I have been Google searching this forum for several weeks now trying to educate myself on the Slant-Six. I'm not new to old cars but I am new to Mopar, so this has been an educational process.
Author:  SlantSixDan [ Thu May 13, 2010 8:15 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
I checked the second bolt and it was tight, so I am hoping it has not moved
My point is that the second bolt can be used to gain whatever amount of adjustment you need when the visible bolt has run out of travel.
Author:  Oldspowered [ Thu May 13, 2010 9:12 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Quote:
I checked the second bolt and it was tight, so I am hoping it has not moved
My point is that the second bolt can be used to gain whatever amount of adjustment you need when the visible bolt has run out of travel.
Ah, gotcha.

I think I can reach that bolt from underneath with a shorty wrench. Is it the same size as the upper bolt?

A friend of mine just offered me the Weber 32/36 DGEV off his old Jeep. It is good to know people in the car parts business.
Author:  valiant1966 [ Thu May 13, 2010 4:38 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
I think I can reach that bolt from underneath with a shorty wrench. Is it the same size as the upper bolt?
It's a 7/16. Same as upper one. I have used a crowfoot wrench to get to this also. Still some maneuvering. It actually was the first time I found a use for one.
Author:  Oldspowered [ Fri May 14, 2010 6:38 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Quote:
I think I can reach that bolt from underneath with a shorty wrench. Is it the same size as the upper bolt?
It's a 7/16. Same as upper one. I have used a crowfoot wrench to get to this also. Still some maneuvering. It actually was the first time I found a use for one.
Hmm, I might just pull the distributor. The brittle wiring of the pickup can't be good, so it wouldn't hurt to change it out (which from my research requires removal of the distributor).

Or it is my excuse to hit up Harbor Freight for a tool I don't have yet. Decisions, decisions...
Author:  Oldspowered [ Wed May 26, 2010 7:38 pm ]
Post subject: 
I worked on the car again tonight. Still no luck.

I spoke with a local carb guru today who gave me some tips on the Carter BBD. He recommended making sure the throttle plate was completely closed with the idle adjustment screw backed all the way off. Then taking out the two idle mixture screws and removing the springs to find where they actually bottom out in their bore. Then backing the screws out 2-1/4 turns each. This was all to make sure I was on the low speed circuit and not flooding the engine.

Checked the timing again, dead nuts on 6 degress BTDC. Firing order is spot on.

How sensitive are these engines to flooding? I haven't been able to get so much as a backfire out of it in months now. I've tried starting fluid and even propane, nothing. I pulled the carb off it tonight just to make sure the intake wasn't full of dirt dobbers.

I guess I will get the Weber from my friend and start working on adapting it. I may not be held responsible for my actions if it still refuses to run with a different carb.
Author:  kipamore [ Wed May 26, 2010 8:25 pm ]
Post subject: 
The fact that it won't fire with ether is the kicker. Even with NO carb, it should still at least sputter and fire a little. I have a feeling when this all plays out it will be something mechanical. About the only thing I can think of is to rotate the engine by hand with the valve cover off and watch the rockers and see if they do anything weird. It's speculation, but a snapped cam or a broken chain would have those symptoms.

The only thing else I can think of is the coil. But it sounds like you've got plenty of spark. Wasn't there something in the HEI conversion page about wiring the module backward?
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