Slant Six Forum :: engine break in oil

The issue is the lack of the protective load bearing additives that have been removed over time due to their harmful nature of emission devices (cats). Today's engines have roller lifters, not flat tappets like engines of old. Flat tappet engines need the additives that have been removed.

a senior guy at Royal Purple and asked me if I cared to bring my advanced chem students over to the plant in Humble, TX, for a tour. Of course I took him up on it....and wow....it was eye-opening.

To make a long story not so long, I discovered that RP is a serious lubricant that few, if any, of the other oils (synthetic or otherwise) can stack up to.

I can go into a long list of the reasons that caused me to come to this conclusion

Quote:

Another myth that's got a lot of old-car hobbyists whipped into a baseless frenzy. The current oil certification tests still include flat-tappet engines, and the old Zinc- and Phosphorus-based EP additives have been replaced by others with equal or greater performance. The rumors of flat-tappet engines being shredded by current oils are just that: rumors. They arise out of guesses and assumptions.

Not a myth, since the reduction of these additives, there are many more instances of wiped cams/ lifters as documented on all auto boards.

This could be part of the oil pump gear failures as well although this problem was experienced long before the additive reductions.

Quote:

Please do. It'll need to include performance-based data from comparisons to other, more readily-available competing products such as Mobil-1. I have no reason to doubt that Royal Purple is a very fine engine oil, but I also have no reason to believe it's significantly (i.e., really) or substantially (i.e., largely) better than Mobil-1, which I can walk in and get from any parts store.

Author:	Volare4life [ Sun Jun 06, 2010 9:48 am ]
Post subject:	engine break in oil
I know this has been beaten to death, but I haven't found a clear answer. Before I break in the motor, what oil do i fill the crank case with for initial break in ?? Motor is a '76 225 new rings honed cylinders new bearings (everything was mic'ed so I new all she need was some fresh bearings and rings) all stock specs oregon cam 280/270 INT/EXT 110deg LSA stock timing chain felpro gasket kit My plan is to switch to Royal Purple 5W-30 after the break in, -Mike

Author:	Fopar [ Sun Jun 06, 2010 9:55 am ]
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Lots of people say to use an oil designed for diesel motors.

Author:	Shaker223 [ Sun Jun 06, 2010 10:17 am ]
Post subject:
I used Brad Penn straight 30wt. No issues.

Author:	SlantSixDan [ Sun Jun 06, 2010 10:47 am ]
Post subject:
There is no need to buy special boutique oil. You can find what you need at a well-stocked parts store. The important thing is to use a light-viscosity oil, because all the clearances in a newly-built engine are tighter than they'll ever be again, and a heavy oil (such as straight 30-weight...or straight anything-weight, for that matter) has a much harder time than a light oil entering those tight spaces. Use a major-brand 5w20 oil and a large, high-quality filter (Wix, Purolator, or Fleetguard -- not Fram!). If you want to be super-extra-fastidious, change the oil and filter after the first hour of engine operation, then after the first 500 miles, then after the next 1000 miles, then go to whatever you decide will be your oil and filter change interval and regular oil selection. As for what grade and type of oil to run after initial break-in: there are still a lot of guys using oil way heavier than they ought to be, in belief of half-understood old myths that have persisted since the 1940s, based on outdated and incorrect notions of what is needed for optimal engine protection. Fact is, heavier-weight oil does not give better engine protection; the only reason to run a heavy grade of oil is to squeeze a last few miles out of a whipped (worn out) engine, to buy time before rebuild or replacement. I'm running 0w30 synthetic in my '73 Dart with just under 50k original miles. Oil pressure comes up much faster on first startup than it ever does with heavier grades, and there's zero inadequacy in engine protection at speed and under load. Pumping drag is much lower than with heavier-weight oils.

Author:	rustyfords [ Sun Jun 06, 2010 11:05 am ]
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I know that talking about oil preference is akin to discussing religion at times....people just have certain preferences and ideas. However, I can offer a bit of a unique perspective on Royal Purple. During my last stint as a chemistry teacher in the Houston area, one of my student's dad was a senior guy at Royal Purple and asked me if I cared to bring my advanced chem students over to the plant in Humble, TX, for a tour. Of course I took him up on it....and wow....it was eye-opening. To make a long story not so long, I discovered that RP is a serious lubricant that few, if any, of the other oils (synthetic or otherwise) can stack up to. I can go into a long list of the reasons that caused me to come to this conclusion (and I'll be happy to if anyone wants me to) but for this posting I think it's worth noting that, at the time, they didn't have an official "tour" of the factory. What my students and I saw was what was happening there on a daily basis. Also...I had the opportunity to talk to several of their engineers and QC people, chemist to chemist, and got their honest perspective about what was going on and what their assessment of the product was This stuff is top notch and worth every dime. I've run it all my cars since then and have been very pleased with it. And I know it's anecdotal, but the most noteworthy of my cars is the 94 Chevy S10 that I just sold that I started running RP in at roughly 30K miles. At the time of the sale, it had 385,000 miles on it. The body seemed to be literally coming apart and the electronics were failing on a daily basis, but the engine was still very strong.

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Author:	Shaker223 [ Sun Jun 06, 2010 11:30 am ]
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While I agree with Dan for the most part. Bearings are not the issue with the use of today's oil. Today's oil is flat out great, just be sure to prime the engine before starting it. The issue is the lack of the protective load bearing additives that have been removed over time due to their harmful nature of emission devices (cats). Today's engines have roller lifters, not flat tappets like engines of old. Flat tappet engines need the additives that have been removed. Namely zinc & phosphorus. These additives are the load bearing (lifter & cam lobe) ingredients that protect the harsh cam to lifter face environment over time and during break-in. Be sure to follow your cam manufacturers break in recommendations. If still unsure, call the cam manufacturer.

Author:	AnotherSix [ Sun Jun 06, 2010 1:55 pm ]
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I am not an advocate of too heavy an oil either. But for breaking in a new engine, I would do something that has worked over and over again without problems for myself and thousands of others for decades. Dan, I have to ask, on how many rebuilds have you done the initial start up and run in with 5-20 conventional oil? I would not assume it is OK without some history. I would like it to be, but see some potential issues. I am sure the pistons / ring pack would love the lighter oil, but have some reservations about the film strength in bottom end bearings that have clearances in the .0015"(at best) to .003" range and espeacially the cam lobes and lifter faces. On the other hand there is no real load on an engine with the trans in neutral. But still the cam / lifters to think about. More modern engines designed to use these light oils do have much tighter clearances and everything is very straight, much like on a blueprinted engine. I would like to see some older engines built this way and run, then torn down for a look see, and then decide. I would bet this would be the way to go. I am of the opinion that a stock slant with its low power output can get away with the lighter synthetic oil like Dan is running probably forever, but I would be wary of running a conventional oil that thin in hot weather. Rebuilt engines do have hot spots, and the hot oil drained after just 30 minutes or so comes out like water. I would just use straight 30wt or even 10-30 with an additive, EOS if you can find some or one from Comp, crane or redline. I am sure there are others too. 30wt oil will not have any trouble getting into the tight spots on the engine. At least prime the engine by turning it over with the plugs out before starting. Definitaly change the oil and filter within the first hour. This gets rid of the excess assembly lube and is the last line of defense against anything that found it's way into your engine. No matter how clean your garage some dust and dirt found its way in there and this hopefully flushes it out. Then I would just run a conventional 10-30 until there are at least a few thousand miles on it before going to synthetic. I just do not see a need to experiment on the initial start up. Run it in, make sure there are no problems and then put whatever oil you want in there, it's your car!

Author:	SlantSixDan [ Sun Jun 06, 2010 2:32 pm ]
Post subject:
Quote: The issue is the lack of the protective load bearing additives that have been removed over time due to their harmful nature of emission devices (cats). Today's engines have roller lifters, not flat tappets like engines of old. Flat tappet engines need the additives that have been removed. Another myth that's got a lot of old-car hobbyists whipped into a baseless frenzy. The current oil certification tests still include flat-tappet engines, and the old Zinc- and Phosphorus-based EP additives have been replaced by others with equal or greater performance. The rumors of flat-tappet engines being shredded by current oils are just that: rumors. They arise out of guesses and assumptions. Film strength in bearings is not primarily a function of oil viscosity. That is one of the primary misunderstandings that leads people to specify too heavy an oil. Wanna use straight 30-weight because it makes you feel warm and fuzzy? You won't destroy your engine or anything; you've got a lot of lattitude because the slant-6 is a very robust unit that is tolerant of a great deal of less-than-optimal maintenance and operational practice. As for things that have worked over and over again without problems: I happily do them unless and until things that work better come along. I don't use leaded gasoline or bias-ply tires or Type-A transmission fluid any more, either. Those things all worked, but now we have things that work better, so I use those instead. This is no different, though it's worth keeping in mind that "I've been doing ____ for years without a problem" is not a very sturdy argument. There are lots of people who've been using Fram's pathetic oil filters for years and haven't (yet) lost an engine. Lots of people who've been smoking cigarettes for years and haven't (yet) barbecued their lungs. Lots of people who've been driving without a seat belt for years and haven't (yet) been turned into bloody pulp on the highway. Lots of people who eat bacon double cheeseburgers on a regular basis and haven't (yet) needed quadruple bypass heart surgery. It just means they're fortunate, not that what they've been doing is necessarily the best idea.

Author:	SlantSixDan [ Sun Jun 06, 2010 2:43 pm ]
Post subject:
Quote: a senior guy at Royal Purple and asked me if I cared to bring my advanced chem students over to the plant in Humble, TX, for a tour. Of course I took him up on it....and wow....it was eye-opening. To make a long story not so long, I discovered that RP is a serious lubricant that few, if any, of the other oils (synthetic or otherwise) can stack up to. I can go into a long list of the reasons that caused me to come to this conclusion Please do. It'll need to include performance-based data from comparisons to other, more readily-available competing products such as Mobil-1. I have no reason to doubt that Royal Purple is a very fine engine oil, but I also have no reason to believe it's significantly (i.e., really) or substantially (i.e., largely) better than Mobil-1, which I can walk in and get from any parts store.

Author:	Shaker223 [ Sun Jun 06, 2010 2:49 pm ]
Post subject:
Quote: Quote: The issue is the lack of the protective load bearing additives that have been removed over time due to their harmful nature of emission devices (cats). Today's engines have roller lifters, not flat tappets like engines of old. Flat tappet engines need the additives that have been removed. Another myth that's got a lot of old-car hobbyists whipped into a baseless frenzy. The current oil certification tests still include flat-tappet engines, and the old Zinc- and Phosphorus-based EP additives have been replaced by others with equal or greater performance. The rumors of flat-tappet engines being shredded by current oils are just that: rumors. They arise out of guesses and assumptions. Not a myth , since the reduction of these additives, there are many more instances of wiped cams/ lifters as documented on all auto boards. Check out the Ford & Chevrolet boards. They too, have seen an increase of this phenomenon. This could be part of the oil pump gear failures as well although this problem was experienced long before the additive reductions.

Author:	ceej [ Sun Jun 06, 2010 2:51 pm ]
Post subject:
I'm also an advocate of 30 wt for break in. I've done it with 10w30 also. The straight 30 is fine for Cam break in though. Whatever Dinosaur oil you want. Save the Synthetic for after the first 2000 miles. My Cycle for break-in is as follows. 1. Cam break in. Change the oil and filter. 2. 500 miles, Change the oil & filter. 3. The next cycle varies. 1000 or 1500 miles. 4. Then I go to 10w30 straight dinosaur for a full cycle. 3K max. 5. Now run whatever trips your trigger. I like Synthetic blends. There are advantages to running some special oils in engines operated at extremely high loads. For a street driven passenger car, those advantages are negligible. Modern production synthetics and blends do an excellent job. There's no need to spend a boatload of money on motor oil. With our bore to stroke, I wouldn't put 5w-anything in my slant because of piston side loads. That's me. Some folks seem to think it's just fine. I can take or leave the Zinc additives during break-in. Check with your cam manufacturer. When running stock valve spring rates there shouldn't be an issue. The guys I talked to at Erson told me not to worry about it. Interestingly enough, the cam companies that sell additives tell you to use it. Do whatever keeps you in warranty. Once the cam is run in, all you need is clean oil delivered at appropriate pressure. The new formulations work just fine. CJ

Author:	SlantSixDan [ Sun Jun 06, 2010 3:00 pm ]
Post subject:
Quote: Not a myth, since the reduction of these additives, there are many more instances of wiped cams/ lifters as documented on all auto boards. Correlation does not imply causation. Read more widely (and please pick more authoritative sources than internet forums...Society of Automotive Engineers papers, for example). Read about the dramatic drop in metallurgy and quality of lifters available for older engines. Then, once you've got a broader and deeper picture of what is (and isn't) actually happening, then let's talk about what is and isn't a myth. Quote: This could be part of the oil pump gear failures as well although this problem was experienced long before the additive reductions. Which tells us it's not due to the mythical unsuitability of modern oils for old engines. C'mon, dude, think!

Author:	Shaker223 [ Sun Jun 06, 2010 3:25 pm ]
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Dan, as Anothersix pointed out...how many engines have you rebuilt to base your knowledge on? How many new cams have you broken in? Your experience is with used engines and they are totally different than a brand new engine. Like lead in gasoline, over time these additives become imbedded in the metal regardless if it is a exhaust valve seat or a lobe/lifter. Apples and oranges here....Think about it. In my last engine I ran what ever I had hanging around. Didn't matter. 0w-30 to 20w-50. Conventional and synthetic...mixed even. No issues. From Bob is the oil Guy:....mid 90's oil formulation changes and when pump gear failures started...hmmmm So What does protect your engine when the hydrodynamic film is sheared? After the base oil has sheared or squeezed out, The last line of defense is an additive that puts down a barrier film. This additive usually has higher levels of strength against shearing so it helps keep the wear down. Alright, here's the catch. In 96, the lubrication industry changed from the SH to SJ API rated oil by reducing the barrier lubricant additives to help preserve cat converters on cars. Why?, It appears that the manufactures / lubrication experts are concerned with contaminating the cat converters with the standard antiwear additives in the motor oils so they have reduced the levels of antiwear additives to preserve the cats. Hmmm, guess what, When they introduced the new SL GF-3 oils, They left it the same. Ok, not out of the woods yet... Now the new GF-4 oils are in the works in hopes to be introduced next year around April. Have a guess one of the things they are going to do?, YEP, reduce the current antiwear additives again. Volare4life, as said earlier in this thread, do what the cam mfr. recommends for break-in oil, additives & procedure to protect your wrty.

Author:	Volare4life [ Sun Jun 06, 2010 4:09 pm ]
Post subject:
Wow should have seen this all coming, cam manufactuer (Oregon) didn't give me anything no came card or reccomendation on how to break in, I have had the cam for just over a year, doubt theres any warranty left for it, is an EOS essential to break in ?? does the oil need to be name brand ie a case (12 qts) store brand vs valvoline/mobil 1/kendall etc... -Mike

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Author:	rustyfords [ Sun Jun 06, 2010 4:21 pm ]
Post subject:
Quote: Quote: a senior guy at Royal Purple and asked me if I cared to bring my advanced chem students over to the plant in Humble, TX, for a tour. Of course I took him up on it....and wow....it was eye-opening. To make a long story not so long, I discovered that RP is a serious lubricant that few, if any, of the other oils (synthetic or otherwise) can stack up to. I can go into a long list of the reasons that caused me to come to this conclusion Please do. It'll need to include performance-based data from comparisons to other, more readily-available competing products such as Mobil-1. I have no reason to doubt that Royal Purple is a very fine engine oil, but I also have no reason to believe it's significantly (i.e., really) or substantially (i.e., largely) better than Mobil-1, which I can walk in and get from any parts store. A few misc. points....not in any order: First...it was a field trip...we didn't ask the Royal Purple QC folks to supply us with quantitative data. Second...the oil that consistently came in second in the tests that I saw was Mobil-1. Third...It may be my proximity to Humble, TX, but I can walk into any Houston area NAPA and find any RP product, from the various oils to the misc greases that they make. Fourth... not exactly a laboratory test, and I'm sure RP was a paid sponsor of the program, but interesting nonetheless.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeQqEG4Z ... re=related Finally....when I get another spare minute, I'll write down some of the qualitative things that I saw, first hand. As they say here in Texas, I have no dog in this hunt....I'm just relating a cool experience that I had.