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Next EFI project & its goals.
https://www.slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=42077		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Sam Powell [ Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:40 am ]
Post subject:  Next EFI project & its goals.
MS II with:

1. Timing control
2. Improved warm up tuning
3. Auto tune with a wide band O2 sensor.
4. Better refinement of low MAP and low RPM fuel cells.

CURRENT FEAR
Because of the Accel disaster, I am very afraid of this. I took a car that ran, and virtually assassinated it, I worry I am running down that road again. Part of the problem before was poor design, and terrible documentation of the new system, and part of it was me missing important problems such as the nonexistent fuel pressure regulation and having the wrong distributor unknowingly installed. My impatience did not help anything either. But, I have had excellent reports from others on this forum running MS II and feel it is worth jumping into with the of getting it complete over the winter time.

MOTIVATION
This desire to change now is not motivated by performance concerns, but drivability and economy issues. The one disappointment with EFI is that it has never yielded the economy that my better carbs provided. I think this is largely due to the fact that I drive it such short distances there is never time to recover from the great losses with the warm up enrichment. That and the fact that the idle AF mixture is fairly rich due to drivability concerns. It does not idle great at lower RPMs , and I would rather run the mixture richerand idle higher to take away fears that it might die in traffic. This phobia was created when I was trying to get Accel GEN VII to work. I have not gotten over this entirely yet.

IMPROVED FUELING
Because my driving style is to drive at the lower RPM levels, (some would call this lugging the engine) much of the cruise area of the fuel map is influenced too much by the idle fueling cells, thus making them richer than is ideal. So, with the higher number of cells available in MS II and the more accurate fueling response due to a higher speed processor, I should be able to both lower and smooth out the idle while creating greater separation of the cruise cells (in my driving style) from the idle cells.

IMPORTANT ENDORSEMENT
Above and beyond that, Greg O says that with the Auto tune feature his fuel mileage just keeps getting better and better.

POSSIBLE IMPROVED IGNITION
IN line with these goals I would also like to improve the ignition system if possible. I currently use the stock Mopar distributor with an MSD box. It works fine, but there must be a reason most manufacturers have moved away from this type of thing. Stability and precision would be the goal. I suspect that timing chain stretch, and play in the distributor play a big role in any fluctuations. This, plus the iffiness of the centrifugal advance design, where the onset of this advance is rather imprecise at best. So, for the first time, I am considering a crank wheel and pick up, as this seems like it would be the most stable place to index timing. I know they use the flywheel sometimes, and am open to this as well, if there are parts and knowledge available to apply this type of thing. There is certainly more room now at the rear of the engine than at the front.

THE CHALLENGE OF LEARNING
The problem is, there is much to learn, and so many options available for much of this that I feel a bit overwhelmed. I have been reading the MEga Manual as many here have suggested, and it is just not that simple. It certainly helps, but there is a forest and trees syndrome that I get into and it is hard to get the big picture, at least yet. True I now know what rising edge and falling edge mean and what these terms refer to in the ignition preferences when setting up MS II but I don't yet know if an external ignition system is needed, or advantageous, or if the internal circuit in MS II is now THE replacement for the old MSD box (or HEI, or orange box in some folks systems). And yet, I have been looking for this info. "Patience Gentle Jack Ass..... Patience"
'
THE HOPE
I will sort this all out in time, but I kind of feel like I must just bury myself in the Mega Manual, which really, really takes time. Every several pages, or more there is a link to click on, which means you must navigate out, and back into the main section repeatedly. This also means that printing out the manual is problematic because in a printed version, the links are not there for you. And the manual is highly fragmented, making it hard to find exactly what you are looking for. But, I am glad it is there. It is the major attraction of of Mega Squirt.

So expect a few questions, and an occasional report. I have become sensitive to asking questions and then being told to "Read the Mega Manual" (as if you can just sit down and do this in an evening). But I have heard this from three different respected members of the forum, and I put great weight on any message I hear three times. With the addition of the 3rd, it is no longer a coincidence is it? :wink: So, I will try to be read up when I ask questions. At least know that I am trying. It takes great courage for an old guy like me to jump into something new and complex. Right before my 92 year old father in-law passed away, he could not use a single household appliance because he no longer understood the "modern" controls. He just never got "digital". I am determined not to let that happen to me. Thanks for your patience, and future help.

Sam
Author:  Dart270 [ Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:55 am ]
Post subject: 
Sam,

This sounds like a great upgrade, and should not be too hard. Matt Cramer at dyiautotune.com can set you up with the MSII computer, cofigured to your needs.

You will need a locked (no advance at all) dist. I can't believe you will gain anything substantial by going to a crank trigger, but I could be wrong.

Lou
Author:  Sam Powell [ Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:09 am ]
Post subject: 
One advantage would be the possible addition of sequential eventually. My reading tells me that the volatage out put of a crank trigger is more stable. A variable reluctor style (Mopar) starts at about .6V and gets higher and higher. Where as the crank trigger uses the standard 5 or 12 volts reference voltage and is the same at all RPM.

I think the goal of all modern ignitions is to make them as precise as possible at both low and higher RPMs, as that is where misfires typically happen. True, the gains are not that high compared to the initial improvements gained by going to basic solid state affairs such as the Mopar Orange box, HEI or MSD, but there are some to be had.

I do think a locked distributor would eliminate much of the vagueness of the old centrifugal advance set up. And maybe you are right, maybe that would be a good application of the 20- 80 rule pretty much. The question is, do I want to put in another 80% to get the last 20 %? In this case it is probably more like 5-95.

Lou, are you interested in pursuing MS II with me? I know you have talked about it in the past. I promise to do the bulk of the research, and not make you my primary support person. I have already written to Matt, and we are working to figure out what is the best set up for me. It seems the daughter card,while cheap) maybe does not offer enough of the newer features to make it a good choice. And there are a number of add ones still required, and mods to the board itself to make it work well.

Sam
Author:  runvs_826 [ Wed Sep 29, 2010 8:07 am ]
Post subject: 
Definitely get a wideband, that is the biggest place I would focus setup. Also, wouldn't be bad to set-up the ignition to run off of Megasquirt, but keep the old one set-up. The reason is that it will make the fuel tuning a little easier, than when you get a decent map (not perfect) switch it over. Essentially you won't be fighting on two fronts.
Author:  Sam Powell [ Wed Sep 29, 2010 8:46 am ]
Post subject: 
Good advice. Thanks. I will leave the present distributor in place, as the current curve does work, and tackle the ignition later.

For the record, I have in on good advice from folks who claim to know that the untapped horsepower gains ultimately come from tuning the timing curve to its ultimate. The process is to put it on a dyno, and bump up timing until HP drops off, and then back off a degree. This requires a steady state dyno, and time and money to do this for every cell in the map. That is way down the road.

Sam
Author:  Pierre [ Wed Sep 29, 2010 9:54 am ]
Post subject: 
Sam, let me suggest - start by keeping your ignition control as is and using the MSII in fuel only mode. This will make things easier - you won't have to worry about the timing map. Print out the major screens in megatune - fuel map, startup enrichments and one with the major injector variables (req_fuel, pulses, etc). Connect pc up to the new megasquirt, enter variables in from your paper, and go. Should behave just like your MS-I did. Run with this for a while to make sure everything is stable, then add the timing control.

I haven't looked at the MS-3 too closely but since we know you love splurging this may be a worthwhile consideration. It adds a bunch of nice things to have. USB, CF slot for automatic computer-less logging, etc.
Author:  Matt Cramer [ Wed Sep 29, 2010 1:38 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Sam, let me suggest - start by keeping your ignition control as is and using the MSII in fuel only mode. This will make things easier - you won't have to worry about the timing map. Print out the major screens in megatune - fuel map, startup enrichments and one with the major injector variables (req_fuel, pulses, etc). Connect pc up to the new megasquirt, enter variables in from your paper, and go. Should behave just like your MS-I did. Run with this for a while to make sure everything is stable, then add the timing control.

I haven't looked at the MS-3 too closely but since we know you love splurging this may be a worthwhile consideration. It adds a bunch of nice things to have. USB, CF slot for automatic computer-less logging, etc.
I agree with Pierre here on this one - try fuel only control first, then move on to spark control. The MS2 should just plug right into your stock harness and you can set it up. Changing as few variables at a time as possible will help avoid letting a project get out of hand.
Author:  Sam Powell [ Thu Sep 30, 2010 7:42 pm ]
Post subject: 
Matt and I are pretty much in agreement now. I will order the MS II 3.57 sometime soon, and get that up and running before tackling timing. Although I will pay for the add-on that will power the coil (or MSD) directly from the ECU. This will make setting up timing control relatively easy later. Thanks for the advice from all, and especially Matt.

It looks like there is an automated routine that will tranfer my old calibrations to the MS II with some filling in and tweaking to get it fully calibrated for my set up. I am looking forward to this. The sure grip is going to wait. It does not seem as practical right now as the ECU upgrade. Later in the Spring, I will get around to that.

Sam
Author:  75duster [ Thu Sep 30, 2010 10:10 pm ]
Post subject: 
does ms3 allow constant timing advance and let you use a knock sensor to retard when necessary? if not then i doubt that going sequential injection and having timing control would get you much. the major domestic mfg's generally use a either two wire VR (variable reluctance) crank sensor (same idea as the chrysler reluctor in your current setup), or a three wire Hall Effect, either one lets them sync off number one. to get sequential injection however you need a three wire on the cam in some way, preferably with a way to not only trigger the individual cylinders but also to count degrees of rotation. they do this by having two sets of "windows" in the same wheel, usually a single big window per cylinder, and 360 windows around the outside edge. other wise the ecm wont know where the cam is at in relation to the crank.
Author:  Dart270 [ Fri Oct 01, 2010 5:38 am ]
Post subject: 
You can also use stock dist (points easy or maybe reluctor) as your cam phase/timing signal for sequential and crank trigger for regular spark triggering. Ehrenberg Green Brick and others have done this and written up in MA mag.

Lou
Author:  Matt Cramer [ Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:22 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
does ms3 allow constant timing advance and let you use a knock sensor to retard when necessary?
It does, but constant timing advance is not something you'd want on a turbo engine. You'd want to be able to dial in different amounts of advance depending on boost / vacuum and RPM.
Quote:
if not then i doubt that going sequential injection and having timing control would get you much.
Our experience has been that while sequential injection doesn't do much for power, it does improve idle quality, gas mileage, and response at very light throttle.

And very few of our MegaSquirted project cars use knock detection. The turbo Miata we have that makes around 3 hp per cubic inch at the crank isn't running knock detection. You just need to tune the spark map carefully.
Quote:
the major domestic mfg's generally use a either two wire VR (variable reluctance) crank sensor (same idea as the chrysler reluctor in your current setup), or a three wire Hall Effect, either one lets them sync off number one. to get sequential injection however you need a three wire on the cam in some way, preferably with a way to not only trigger the individual cylinders but also to count degrees of rotation. they do this by having two sets of "windows" in the same wheel, usually a single big window per cylinder, and 360 windows around the outside edge. other wise the ecm wont know where the cam is at in relation to the crank.
You can simply use a crank trigger and modify the distributor by filing all but one tooth off the reluctor wheel.
Author:  Greg Ondayko [ Fri Oct 01, 2010 9:21 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:

And very few of our MegaSquirted project cars use knock detection. The turbo Miata we have that makes around 3 hp per cubic inch at the crank isn't running knock detection. You just need to tune the spark map carefully.



Yes so true! I have really been digging into my spark map and doing a lot of tuning. I have no KNock sensor - But when I do hear it I go right to the spark map and tune it. I have MSII however.

MSIII sounds nice for putting around and idle quality - I might be upgrading sometime soon.


Greg
Author:  Sam Powell [ Fri Oct 01, 2010 9:54 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
You can also use stock dist (points easy or maybe reluctor) as your cam phase/timing signal for sequential and crank trigger for regular spark triggering. Ehrenberg Green Brick and others have done this and written up in MA mag.

Lou
I can see how this would work. As Matt says, file off all but one of the lobes from the reflector for the cam timing, get the cylinder timing from the degree wheel.

With a deree wheel do you make the pick up adjustable to set the timing there? I know that once initial timing (so to speak) is established, that gets recorded in the constant/calibration set up and remains fixed until such time as you decide to modify the system in some way. The fixed timing in MS II becomes the most retarded setting available to the engine in tuning. So if you set it for ten, then you cannot retard it below 10 degrees advanced.

It seems like a spark knock sensor could be a safety device more than anything. Do all tuning without it, but then add the spark knock later just to keep the engine from going into melt down mode in the event of bad gas, drop in fuel pressure, etc.

With sequential is it possible to tune fuel on each cylinder individually?

Sam
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