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| Borg-Warner T-5 5 speed manual transmission https://www.slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4320 |
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| Author: | John Rewind [ Mon Oct 21, 2002 8:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | Borg-Warner T-5 5 speed manual transmission |
Sandy in B.C.!!!! Where are you? We need more info from your conversion.What did you do for a tranny cross-member? Thanks. raywayne@webtv.net |
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| Author: | Doc. [ Mon Oct 21, 2002 10:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Borg-Warner T-5 5 speed manual transmission |
Quote:
: Sandy in B.C.!!!! Where are you? We need more : info from your conversion.What did you do : for a tranny cross-member? Thanks. May-be Lou Matsen (Dart270) can help with this, he just put a T-5 into his 64 Dart. DD |
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| Author: | Dart270 [ Mon Oct 21, 2002 11:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Borg-Warner T-5 5 speed manual transmission |
Quote:
: May-be Lou Matsen (Dart270) can help with this, : he just put a T-5 into his 64 Dart. : DD I need to get a page setup with some pics, as I have some sitting around. I could email them to someone to post, or directly to interested parties. I will write a little article on this in the next month or two with pics for this site. On my '64 Dart, I had to cut the upper crossmember in the middle and a little on the drivers underside to get the trans to sit high enough in the back. I then built a new upper X-member out of 1X2" box tubing and 1/8" plate that bolts onto the stock X-member remains and extends onto the floor. The lower trans mount/X member is similar to a factory unit, altough I had to cut out the top support piece in the middle and weld an extension on to move the mount forward in the car by about 1.5". I used a Chevy PolyU trans mount (Summit) since it is low profile. I just declared the new T5 broken in yesterday after about 8-900 miles and swapped my 3.91 gears in. Man, the thing is quick, and the shifting is smooth. 2.46 final drive ratio too with my 0.63 5th gear. Still have a little driveshaft vibration, but a new one is on order. I'll post some test'n'tune times before too long. Lou |
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| Author: | matt haskell [ Mon Oct 21, 2002 11:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Borg-Warner T-5 5 speed manual transmission |
Quote:
: I need to get a page setup with some pics, as I : have some sitting around. I could email them : to someone to post, or directly to : interested parties. I will write a little : article on this in the next month or two : with pics for this site. : : On my '64 Dart, I had to cut the upper : crossmember in the middle and a little on : the drivers underside to get the trans to : sit high enough in the back. I then built a : new upper X-member out of 1X2" box : tubing and 1/8" plate that bolts onto : the stock X-member remains and extends onto : the floor. : : The lower trans mount/X member is similar to a : factory unit, altough I had to cut out the : top support piece in the middle and weld an : extension on to move the mount forward in : the car by about 1.5". I used a Chevy : PolyU trans mount (Summit) since it is low : profile. : : I just declared the new T5 broken in yesterday : after about 8-900 miles and swapped my 3.91 : gears in. Man, the thing is quick, and the : shifting is smooth. 2.46 final drive ratio : too with my 0.63 5th gear. Still have a : little driveshaft vibration, but a new one : is on order. I'll post some test'n'tune : times before too long. : : Lou I had to do similar work on my '65. My lower crossmember is the stock one with the middle cut out and rebuilt to match the new trans. I used the GM t5 out of a V6 camero. In the chevy, the trans is rotated to one side unlike the fords. When I converted my bellhousing, I orientated the trans in the correct position(shifter strate up) like the ford t5. The only problem is the transmount on the gm trans is made for their rotated mounting, which means the mount is tilted to one side when I installed it, which caused me to do more fab work on the crossmember. This is enough reason for me to recomend that folks use the ford t5's and not the GM units. Also, I think, but can't confirm, that the ford trans to bellhousing pattern is smaller making modification to the sl6 bellhousing easier. Lou, What's the 1st gear ratio of your ford v8 t5? the gm v6 t5 I put in mine has something like a 3.98 1st, which would be way too low with a r&p ratio like your 3.90. My od is only 0.79. I think my little motor would fall on it's face with such a tall od and my 3.23 gears.. Home made driveshaft? Your pinion angles may be off.. Everything has changed with the new trans length and output height, you may need to adjust your axle's pinion angle to match the trans output. matt- mhaskell@reliant.com |
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| Author: | KOG [ Mon Oct 21, 2002 12:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Borg-Warner T-5 5 speed manual transmission |
A 225 can pull a 2.45 gear, but that's a little high. I ran one in a '74 Brougham for several years as a replacement for the stock 318 which carried the 2.45 gear. 225s are happier with the 2.76 gear with a 904 although the 2.45 does help highway mileage slightly and reduces engine noise somewhat. That 2.45 8-1/4 axle is currently in a '73 Valiant 360/727 and works very nicely with that combination. |
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| Author: | matt haskell [ Mon Oct 21, 2002 1:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Borg-Warner T-5 5 speed manual transmission |
Quote:
: A 225 can pull a 2.45 gear, but that's a little : high. I ran one in a '74 Brougham for : several years as a replacement for the stock : 318 which carried the 2.45 gear. 225s are : happier with the 2.76 gear with a 904 : although the 2.45 does help highway mileage : slightly and reduces engine noise somewhat. : That 2.45 8-1/4 axle is currently in a '73 : Valiant 360/727 and works very nicely with : that combination. Although I haven't gone for a ride in it, I assume Lou's car would do wonderfully with that tall of a final drive, he's built a pretty stout engine. My setup is quite different. I have a overcarbed but otherwise stock 170 in front of my 5spd, and I doubt it would handle such a tall final drive. I got lucky, and the t5 I ended up using is a better match for my setup with it's deep 1st gear, and shallow over drive. mhaskell@reliant.com |
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| Author: | Dart270 [ Mon Oct 21, 2002 1:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Borg-Warner T-5 5 speed manual transmission |
Quote:
: I had to do similar work on my '65. My lower : crossmember is the stock one with the middle : cut out and rebuilt to match the new trans. : I used the GM t5 out of a V6 camero. In the : chevy, the trans is rotated to one side : unlike the fords. When I converted my : bellhousing, I orientated the trans in the : correct position(shifter strate up) like the : ford t5. The only problem is the transmount : on the gm trans is made for their rotated : mounting, which means the mount is tilted to : one side when I installed it, which caused : me to do more fab work on the crossmember. : This is enough reason for me to recomend : that folks use the ford t5's and not the GM : units. Also, I think, but can't confirm, : that the ford trans to bellhousing pattern : is smaller making modification to the sl6 : bellhousing easier. Just so you know, the Ford T5 also has a slight angle to it, but it's only 5-7 degrees or so, and I matched that with my crossmember mount surface. : : Lou, What's the 1st gear ratio of your ford v8 : t5? the gm v6 t5 I put in mine has something : like a 3.98 1st, which would be way too low : with a r&p ratio like your 3.90. My od is : only 0.79. I think my little motor would : fall on it's face with such a tall od and my : 3.23 gears.. My ratios 2.95, 1.94, 1.34, 1, 0.63. Good for tall gears and pretty close ratio. This is only for the Ford Racing (aftermarket) trans. I think you have the right ratios there for 1st and OD. I just feel that the V8 transmissions have closer ratios in 1-4 gears, so they're better for racing. : : Home made driveshaft? : : Your pinion angles may be off.. Everything has : changed with the new trans length and output : height, you may need to adjust your axle's : pinion angle to match the trans output. : : matt- I used an a-body driveshaft from a later year, and it's slightly too long, but OK. I did check the tranny and pinion angles and they are within 1 deg, so I don't think that's it. I get 3-3.5 degrees on the trans output (pointing down) and 2-2.5 degrees on the pinion (pointing up). I figure I'll try a new shaft first, and then work from there to adjust angles if it still vibrates. Lou |
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| Author: | matt haskell [ Mon Oct 21, 2002 2:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Borg-Warner T-5 5 speed manual transmission |
Quote:
: I used an a-body driveshaft from a later year, : and it's slightly too long, but OK. I did : check the tranny and pinion angles and they : are within 1 deg, so I don't think that's : it. I get 3-3.5 degrees on the trans output : (pointing down) and 2-2.5 degrees on the : pinion (pointing up). I figure I'll try a : new shaft first, and then work from there to : adjust angles if it still vibrates. : : Lou I know this will sound weird, but a fairly common trick in the 4wd circles is to drill a small hole or two in the drive shaft and squirt some of the urethane (not the cheap water based stuff)expanding foam in there. If done right it won't change the balance much, but it will change its harmonic frequency. No going back once you've done this, but a good trick for a junk yard part. If balance is in question, then two identical hose clamps installed next to each other with the screw parts opposite each other.. keep moving them around untill things get worse or improve, add, change, move as need. Good if you have lots of time to kill.. FYI, I got my last driveshaft made by Tom Woods. Great service, really quick turn around and cheaper than the guy here in town who I didn't want to deal with for other reasons anytway.. <A HREF="http://www.4xshaft.com/">http://www.4xshaft.com/</A> It was for my jeep, but I imagine He'll make shafts for anything.. matt- mhaskell@reliant.com |
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| Author: | rustycowl [ Mon Oct 21, 2002 3:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Borg-Warner T-5 5 speed manual transmission |
Quote:
: Just so you know, the Ford T5 also has a slight : angle to it, but it's only 5-7 degrees or : so, and I matched that with my crossmember : mount surface. : : My ratios 2.95, 1.94, 1.34, 1, 0.63. Good for : tall gears and pretty close ratio. This is : only for the Ford Racing (aftermarket) : trans. I think you have the right ratios : there for 1st and OD. I just feel that the : V8 transmissions have closer ratios in 1-4 : gears, so they're better for racing. : : I used an a-body driveshaft from a later year, : and it's slightly too long, but OK. I did : check the tranny and pinion angles and they : are within 1 deg, so I don't think that's : it. I get 3-3.5 degrees on the trans output : (pointing down) and 2-2.5 degrees on the : pinion (pointing up). I figure I'll try a : new shaft first, and then work from there to : adjust angles if it still vibrates. : : Lou I've chased around a couple of these vibration gremlins. The angles relative to themselves sound OK, but generally I think rear axle is supposed to be slightly nose down. The idea is to keep them parallel to each other in the vertical plane AND the HORIZONTAL plane within a degree. To adjust the rear pinion angle MP used to sell a good taper shim package for under the spring pads. Can you raise the rear of the trans or is there tunnel interference or carb angle issues to consider? lanctof@wsdot.wa.gov |
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| Author: | james longhurst [ Mon Oct 21, 2002 3:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: what about shifters? |
Quote:
: Although I haven't gone for a ride in it, I : assume Lou's car would do wonderfully with : that tall of a final drive, he's built a : pretty stout engine. My setup is quite : different. I have a overcarbed but otherwise : stock 170 in front of my 5spd, and I doubt : it would handle such a tall final drive. I : got lucky, and the t5 I ended up using is a : better match for my setup with it's deep 1st : gear, and shallow over drive. tell me guys, where does the shifter wind up after the t-5 swap. i picked up a '64 4-spd hump at carlisle for my '63 dart so i could swap an 833 in place of the 904. will this piece be of any use if i decide on the t-5? i have the pedals and clutch linkage, too, but the t-5 uses a hydraulic unit integral to the release bearing, no? -james ludite13@cs.com |
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| Author: | Dart270 [ Tue Oct 22, 2002 5:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: what about shifters? |
Quote:
: tell me guys, where does the shifter wind up : after the t-5 swap. i picked up a '64 4-spd : hump at carlisle for my '63 dart so i could : swap an 833 in place of the 904. will this : piece be of any use if i decide on the t-5? : i have the pedals and clutch linkage, too, but : the t-5 uses a hydraulic unit integral to : the release bearing, no? : : -james James, Check out the Richmond photo gallery ( <A HREF="http://www.slantsix.org/galleries/richmond/lou-64inside.jpg">http://www.slantsix.org/galleries/richmond/lou-64inside.jpg</A> ) and you can see where my shifter site. It's pretty much centered on the tunnel, just behind where the upper crossmember is. You won't need a big shifter hump if you do the T5. I just made a small hump right around the shifter housing with sheet aluminum. I did dent the factory hump a little and grind on the trans top a little bit for clearance. If you want to have more clearance, I think you'll be better off making your own hump rather than using a factory one. My car was a 904 before this. That said, Mike Andreas on this site is looking for a '63-66 floor hump for his '65 Valiant with 833 swapped in. Feel free to ask more questions. Cheers, Lou |
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| Author: | Dart270 [ Tue Oct 22, 2002 6:05 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Borg-Warner T-5 5 speed manual transmission |
Quote:
: I've chased around a couple of these vibration : gremlins. The angles relative to themselves : sound OK, but generally I think rear axle is : supposed to be slightly nose down. : The idea is to keep them parallel to each other : in the vertical plane AND the HORIZONTAL : plane within a degree. : To adjust the rear pinion angle MP used to sell : a good taper shim package for under the : spring pads. : Can you raise the rear of the trans or is there : tunnel interference or carb angle issues to : consider? Thanks for the input, Rusty. Actually, my trans output angle sits less than one degree lower than with the factory 904 (spec is 2.5deg pointed down). Most rears I've seen do point up slightly, but I may try dropping the nose down, as I have a set of those 2deg angle shim plates. The horizontal alignment is definitely within a degree too. We shall see... Lou |
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| Author: | Dart270 [ Tue Oct 22, 2002 6:06 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Borg-Warner T-5 5 speed manual transmission |
Quote:
: I know this will sound weird, but a fairly : common trick in the 4wd circles is to drill : a small hole or two in the drive shaft and : squirt some of the urethane (not the cheap : water based stuff)expanding foam in there. : If done right it won't change the balance : much, but it will change its harmonic : frequency. No going back once you've done : this, but a good trick for a junk yard part. : : If balance is in question, then two identical : hose clamps installed next to each other : with the screw parts opposite each other.. : keep moving them around untill things get : worse or improve, add, change, move as need. : Good if you have lots of time to kill.. : : FYI, I got my last driveshaft made by Tom : Woods. Great service, really quick turn : around and cheaper than the guy here in town : who I didn't want to deal with for other : reasons anytway.. <A HREF="http://www.4xshaft.com/">http://www.4xshaft.com/</A> : It was for my jeep, but I imagine He'll make : shafts for anything.. : : matt- Thanks for the driveshaft tips. I'll keep you guys updated... I just ordered a shaft from Denny's Driveshaft. Lou |
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| Author: | matt haskell [ Tue Oct 22, 2002 9:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: what about shifters? |
Quote:
: the t-5 uses a hydraulic unit integral to : the release bearing, no? : -james No, not originally. The T5s use a traditional fork the exits the bell and accepts linkage or an external slave cyl. Lou and I opted to use Mcleod's hydraulic TO bearing as it simplified the process. This did require the addition of a clutch master cyl to be mounted on the firewall. I welded a master cyl mount to the firewall right where the stock speedo cable exited, and welded a post on the pedal linkage to accept the master cyl pushrod. mhaskell@reliant.com |
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| Author: | james longhurst [ Tue Oct 22, 2002 4:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: what about shifters? |
Quote:
: James, : : Check out the Richmond photo gallery ( : <A HREF="http://www.slantsix.org/galleries/richm ... ide.jpg</A> : ) and you can see where my shifter site. : It's pretty much centered on the tunnel, : just behind where the upper crossmember is. : You won't need a big shifter hump if you do : the T5. I just made a small hump right : around the shifter housing with sheet : aluminum. I did dent the factory hump a : little and grind on the trans top a little : bit for clearance. If you want to have more : clearance, I think you'll be better off : making your own hump rather than using a : factory one. My car was a 904 before this. : : That said, Mike Andreas on this site is looking : for a '63-66 floor hump for his '65 Valiant : with 833 swapped in. : : Feel free to ask more questions. : : Cheers, : : Lou yeah, the hydraulic setup would definitely be the way to go as far as ease of swap is concerned, but past experiance with ranger pickups and exploders makes me cringe at the thought! what kind of clutch master did you guys use? where is the pedal at when the clutch engages? shifter location looks great lou! i think i know a guy who can help you out with the trim panel where your p/b shifter is. i bought one for my '63 when i first decided to make a swap to a 4-spd and started collecting parts. call andy wittenborn in briarcliff manor, ny (914)941-2744. i got mine and he had several to choose from. he has TONS of early a-body stuff! he's also a little crazy though, but a real nice guy when you get to talking to him. by the way lou, my buddy bill ladd once told me about a roomate he had in chapel hill who was into old darts/valiants. that wouldn't be you, would it? -james ludite13@cs.com |
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