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| Clifford performance hydraulic cam https://www.slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=56388 |
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| Author: | Alaskanmopar [ Wed Oct 15, 2014 2:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Clifford performance hydraulic cam |
Ok so I pretty much bought what I would consider a full 6=8 kit from Cliffords. This is for my 82 slant hydraulic cam. I bought the engine rebuild kit with .060 pistons and rings, the 264 hydraulic cam, cliffords headers, the twin carb manifold and x pipe. However this build required the mechanical rocker assembly from an earlier engine. His push rods he sent are also for the mechanical rocker assembly with the ball and hole on one end and the cup on the other. The mechanical rocker assembly was required for his specific specs for that build. I called and Talked to Larry who was more than friendly in his explanation and has been great through the order process. However I wasn't really grasping his explanation of how the hydraulic lifters and such stayed oiled with this set up. The question came up because when talking to the rep at Rocker arms unlimited he was a little concerned that the mechanical rocker assembly wouldn't work. Im dumping quite a it of cash into this engine as stated in my 82 engine post and really don't want to be messing things up. The build suggestion was to bore .060 on the block, shave .020 off the block and .100 off the head which I'm good with. Just looking for thoughts on oiling for the lifters and such. Please no flaming of any of the aforementioned business...like all of them everyone has had good and bad. Thanks for the information |
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| Author: | Pierre [ Wed Oct 15, 2014 3:45 pm ] |
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The original hydraulic setup - lifters got their oil through the hollow pushrod. Oil would go up the back of the block, through the shaft, to the rockers, down the pushrod, and to the lifters. The solid lifter pushrods weren't hollow. That recipe calls for almost an 1/8" removal which means shorter pushrods. Perhaps he sent you a franken-rod, hollow to pass oil and shorter to accommodate for the cuts? You said there's a hole on the bottom ball - what about in the top cup? Even so, I'm not sure a mechanical rocker will pass the volume of oil necessary. Or how will oil get from rocker to the rod? The adjustment screw is solid. I'm not sure how you'll go about adjusting the rockers now properly. Why are mechanical rockers required? If you have a hydraulic engine and your putting in a hydraulic cam, can't you keep the existing valvetrain and just use a shorter hydraulic pushrod (hollow, ball on both ends like stock)? |
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| Author: | Alaskanmopar [ Wed Oct 15, 2014 4:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Clifford Performance hydraulic cam |
The mechanical pushrods sent with the hydraulic cam and lifters have a hole in the ball but not the cup. As the head and block are shaved a total of .120 it was explained to me I would need the mechanical rocker assembly to be able to adjust for the recommended milling. This is the way it was explained to me any how. How the valve train gets lubricated properly is of course why I am here. My initial think was the the hydraulic lifters would be able to handle the milling I am having done in combination with the clifford performance hydraulic cam and that the original pushrods and full hydraulic set up would work. But according the Cliffords I need to have the mechanical rocker assembly to be able to adjust. Im not second guessing Cliffords per say, I just need it to make sense for me. In all I have $2700 into the Clifford Kit, and will be into the machine shop for another $1800 or so after block and head cleaning, milling, blueprinting and assembly. There fore I just want to make sure I have all the right info to not blow up an expensive hunk of steel. Im doing a full custom resto on a 1970 D200 Swepty that I am hoping to show next Summer here near Tacoma. So far I've finished and painted the frame and drive train as well as rebuilt the front and rear axle. Swapped the 727 for an A833 4 speed w/od. Converted the 4 wheel drum to 4 wheel disc. swapped the air system to a genII vintage air setup for cab air. Swapped the original 70 front clip for a pre 65 for the dual headlight set up which is way more badass imo. All in all I'll have up above 25k into the project. Call me paranoid lol but trying to make sure all my ducks are in a row. |
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| Author: | Reed [ Wed Oct 15, 2014 4:43 pm ] |
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You should not hesistate to question Clifford. You won't find many slant six people with good things to say about Clifford Performance lately. In fact, you can search this message board for all sorts of horror stories about how Clifford sells parts that dont work together, takes peoples' money and doesn't send them parts, and how the quality of Clifford parts has really gone downhill. As has been mentioned above, the slant six hydraulic lifter system fed oil to the lifters through the rocker arms and the hollow pushrods. I compare the valvetrains of a mechanical lifter system and a hydraulic lifter system HERE. Whether or not the mechanical lifter rocker arms will pass enough oil to feed the hydraulic lifters is debatable (I tend to think they won't, which is why Chrysler changed the oil holes so much in the lifter), but it is indisputable that solid pushrods will not permit oil to get to the hydraulic lifter. The hydraulic lifters will never pressureize and will not function. If I had to guess, my guess would be that Clifford is selling you all these parts that will effectively bottom the plunger of the hydraulic lifter in the lifter bore and turn your hydraulic lifters into mechanical lifters. This is why you are "required" to run the mechanical adjustable rocker arms. The only way you will be able to keep hydraulic lifters with a head shaved .120 and a big cam will be to have custom hollow tube pushrods made up. Additionally, if you are going to run a hydraulic cam, you will need to have the machine shop make absolutely sure that the valves all have identical stem lengths and that they sit the same height up from the head. My recommendation would be for you to return as much of the Clifford stuff as you can. If you want a hydraulic lifter cam in the slant six, the Clifford stuff won't let you have one. Plus, you can do better for much less money. Only overbore as much as you need. You may only need new rings and a clean-up hone. The increase in displacement isn't worth the extra cost. I don't know what your dynamic compression will be, but with that much milled off the head it will likely be pretty high. With that much increase in the dynamic compression the factory hydraulic camshaft is actually an OK choice for a daily driver truck. Board member Dadtruck did some extensive work comparing the estimated output of various profiles of hydraulic cams. If I remember correctly, the factory hydraulic cam was not the best performer, but it was decent enough that it woudl befine in a build for a daily driver with enough compression increase. You can run headers if you want them, but a much better choice for a daily driver truck would be a cast iron dual exhaust setup wth a modified factory rear manifold for carb heat and a front Dutra manifold. If you are set on a dual carb setup then you can run dual Dutra manifolds. Dual carbs are a showy setup, but not really necessary on a street driven slant. If you want them for the gee-whiz factor, fine, but if you are looking for easy maintenance and lower cost to set up and operate, then a single carb system is the way to go. With a street driven slant six smaller is almost always better when it comes to performance upgrades. You don't need dual carbs or even a four mbarrel most times, big cam profiles are mostly for the track, buge amounts milled off the head won't work well unless the motor is caefully set up, etc... |
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| Author: | Pierre [ Wed Oct 15, 2014 5:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
If there's no hole in the cup, but there is in the ball, your hydraulic lifters will be starved for oil. Even if you did drill out the cup (assuming rest of the rod is hollow, you can try sticking something skinny through hole in ball) there still is no way for oil to flow through the rocker to the rod. The "right" way to do this is to assemble everything together with the hydraulic valve train and no pushrods. Then measure what size pushrods you need and get them custom made. Relatively inexpensive, $100ish a set. Just an fyi - with a stock mechanical engine - if you take off 1/8" between head/block the screw will likely not have enough adjustment and you'd need shorter rods anyway. I know you don't want to hear it but stunts like this are the reason we dis-like clifford so much. |
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| Author: | Alaskanmopar [ Wed Oct 15, 2014 5:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Clifford Performance hydraulic cam |
Thanks for the replies guys. I'm spending quite a bit of cash on his project so money is/isn't an issue. I'll have over 25k invested over all when done, however that doesn't mean my pockets are bottemless and i definitely don't want to have to redo an engine.That being said..if I stick with the clifford performance stuff would you suggest I stay then with the hydraulic rocker assembly and just get push rods custom made for the setup? Dropping cash for the rods isn't a huge deal and much cheaper than redoing it again later |
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| Author: | sandy in BC [ Wed Oct 15, 2014 5:28 pm ] |
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Smith Bros Pushrods,,,,one of the best bargains in aftermarket equipment. |
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| Author: | Reed [ Wed Oct 15, 2014 5:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
If you are set on keeping the Clifford parts, then yes, keep the stock hydraulic rocker arms and rocker arm shaft and get custom pushrods made up. As has been mentioned you will need to assemble the head, block, cam, and valvetrain and get accurate measurements of how long the pushrods need to be. Also be sure to have the machine shop match the stem height of all the valves. Does the Clifford cam had a groove around the entire rear cam journal? If it doesn't then isufficient oil will be pumped up to the rocker arms. |
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| Author: | Alaskanmopar [ Wed Oct 15, 2014 5:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Clifford Performance hydraulic cam |
No the cam doesnt have the groove. Bit upsetting. So if I where to install this cam and the supplied rods without having the groove in the rear cam journal..how the heck is my engine supposed to live? I'd love to hear the theory? |
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| Author: | Reed [ Wed Oct 15, 2014 5:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
By sending more money to Clifford for more parts that don't work together, of course. I believe you can purchase rear cam bearings that have grooves. If the bearings are installed and the oil gallery holes drilled in the right places than this will work instead of having a groove in the cam. I really am amazed that Clifford is selling this combination as a "hydraulic" cam for a slant six. The cam is not manufactured to provide the necessary oil flow to the lifters, the pushrods aren't manufactured to provide oil to the lifters, and the adjutable mechanical valvetrain has to be used. That isn't really a "hydraulic" lifter system, is it? |
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| Author: | Alaskanmopar [ Wed Oct 15, 2014 6:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Clifford performance hydraulic cam |
Apparently not. I was very specific in that this is an 82 slant and even threw in Hydraulic during a few conversations as I wanted to make sure I got the right parts. I'm not a mechanic by trade but know enough to question thing that dont make sense. Of course I didnt know to what extend things had been wrong until I received the parts. I'm trying to trust the professionals here but it appears I have to call Cliffords again and get the whats what and have the explained to me how this is all supposed to work without damaging the engine. Appreciate the feed back Reed. |
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| Author: | Reed [ Wed Oct 15, 2014 6:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Good luck. I still recommend you return everything you can to Clifford and instead ask around on this board for what you can do to the engine to achieve your goals. Chances are that you can use other parts that are much cheaper and will perform better than Clifford's. |
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| Author: | Alaskanmopar [ Wed Oct 15, 2014 6:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Clifford Performance hydraulic cam |
Thanks again. Im sure I could return the stuff but will probably have to pay a restocking fee. Of which I will not be to happy about. I think its about $2600 I spent at cliffords. I have done a bit of research and seen some negative feed back on customer service and performance but alot of people have negatives they want to put on someone else because of something they may have done themselves. They have been in business for awhile and couldnt really stay in business if they weren't doing something right..right? At any rate I am taking your info and suggestions and running with it and making sure I have all my ducks in a row as best as I Cam. I sent an email out to Cliffords to ask them to help me understand how this is all "supposed" to work as it just doesn't make sense. |
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| Author: | Rick Covalt [ Wed Oct 15, 2014 6:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Maybe the cam they sent him is a Mechanical cam? Also if you bought everything from Clifford, be aware that you do not want a high volume oil pump. As good as that may sound it is a recipe for disaster. A standard volume oil pump or even a used oil pump is what you want. |
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| Author: | Alaskanmopar [ Wed Oct 15, 2014 7:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Clifford performance hydraulic cam |
Also on the cam shaft...shouldnt the lobes be polished? I have no idea..they are black right now. |
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