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Main and Rod Bearing Brand and Construction type for Race Engine
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Author:  Greg Ondayko [ Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:58 am ]
Post subject:  Main and Rod Bearing Brand and Construction type for Race Engine
Hi Guys,

I am ordering some Main and Rod Bearings for my hopefully to be done soon block for the 3rd version of the "Ruster" Engine.

A few questions:


1. is there a better band preference for bearings for this type of application?
I see Sealed power, Enginetech and Sealed Power. I am inclined to go with Mahle-Clevite.


2. What is the preference between Aluminum Bearings vs. tri-metal bearings for this( moderdate 300+ HP, Non Boosted 7000 RPM) application?


Thanks for your help sages,

Greg
Author:  Rick Covalt [ Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Main and Rod Bearing Brand and Construction type for Race Engine
King bearings are supposed to be good and that is what is in my race engine
Author:  Greg Ondayko [ Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Main and Rod Bearing Brand and Construction type for Race Engine
Quote:
King bearings are supposed to be good and that is what is in my race engine

Where can i get them? I have never head of them.


Greg
Author:  SlantSteve [ Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Main and Rod Bearing Brand and Construction type for Race Engine
Personally I’d say Mahle/Clevite. King also have a very good name. If you do a search on the Mahle/Clevite site there is an excellent downloadable manual there that is very informative. For all the main stream engines they do .001” over and under size to mix and match in order to blue print your bearing clearances. They also do a coated series but I doubt they are available for the Slant.
Author:  Rick Covalt [ Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Main and Rod Bearing Brand and Construction type for Race Engine
I think the shop got them through summit.
Author:  DadTruck [ Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Main and Rod Bearing Brand and Construction type for Race Engine
Bi metal bearings, aluminum on steel, is a composition that works well on cast cranks.
Tri metal bearing, copper/lead and tin on steel has been around about forever and works well on steel cranks.
Nothing says you can’t run run aluminum on steel or copper / tin on cast, but when you do that you are going against bearing properties that were developed for specific crank materials.

Mahle/Clevite bearings are manufactured in Atlantic Iowa, by a family ran German company.
Federal Mogul is also a major player in the plain bearing business, they manufacture plain bearings in Greenville Michigan.
I have been to both of those plants, both are Top Tier, very good manufacturing and quality systems.
King Bearings manufacture in Israel. They have a presence in the aftermarket and performance markets.
Personally I think, get the bearing clearances right and any of the bearings listed above will work fine.
Get the clearances wrong and any of the bearings will not do well.

here is an article that does a good job impartially discussing the differences between Bi and Tri metal bearings:

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2012/10 ... -bearings/
Author:  slantzilla [ Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Main and Rod Bearing Brand and Construction type for Race Engine
Back in the old days Direct Connection used to recommend aluminum for high rpm stick cars and tri metal for everything else.

That being said, I used Michigan bearings in my junk. They were Clevites. It's been over 7000 and last time Mike tore it down they looked fine. He put them back in.
Author:  Rick Covalt [ Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Main and Rod Bearing Brand and Construction type for Race Engine
The following is from King Bearings. I don't know any more than that. Rick


Since King’s Alecular bearing layer is much thicker than the babbitt overlay (.015" vs. .0008"), it provides eighteen (18) times more embedability than a tri-metal bearing to catch and hold particles so they don’t scratch the crank journals. This is especially true for particles over .0004" in diameter which cause most of the damage.

Benefit No. 2 - Conformability
The much thicker layer of Alecular bearing material (.015" vs. .0008") allows the bearing to conform to problems such as metal to metal contact when there is mis-alignment present or the connecting rods stretch. Greater conformability means fewer bearing failures.

Benefit No. 3 - Temperature Resistance
The Alecular material’s melting/fatigue point is over 11000 F, almost three times that of the thin babbitt overlay in a tri-metal bearing (400OF). This means added protection against localized overheating due to mis-alignment, detonation, overloading, loss of coolant, etc.

Benefit No. 4 - High Load Capacity
Alecular bearings successfully withstand the stresses of blown, nitro-methane burning Top Fuel dragsters generating 5,000 hp at 8,000 rpm and in 700 hp circle track engines running for extended periods of time. The same metallurgical alloy is used in King’s street bearings that is used in King’s High Performance bearings, so the regular bearing user gets the advantage of the alloy developed and used in race engines.

Benefit No. 5 - Control of Wall Tolerance
Bearing -to- journal clearances on main and connecting rod bearings can be affected by several variables, all of which the engine builder must try to control. King has removed concerns about inconsistent shell to shell bearing wall thickness by the use of statistical control methods to keep wall thickness to very limited variation.
Other manufacturers produce bearings whose wall thickness at the crown can vary by up to + .00025". King bearings are produced using "Bull's Eye" specs which set a higher standard of controlling the wall thickness, permitting no more than + .00010" variation of the desired thickness.

The benefits of tight control of wall thickness tolerance are:
1. Improved consistency of bearing to journal clearance. No more trying different bearings within a set to get the "right" fit.
2. Superior eccentricity and crush relief values for a better oil "wedge" and less journal wear.
3. Less taper across the bearing face, meaning superior wall stability, a more parallel wall and better oil film development.
4. Crankshaft grinder does not need to grind cranks "fat" or "thin" to compensate for bearing variations.

Benefit No. 6 - Crankshaft Endplay
All bearing companies solve crankshaft journal wear by supplying oversized bearings. However, King went two steps further with the development of Max Flange and Pro Flange. Max Flange reduces endplay by supplying the flange on the high side of the tolerance to compensate for crankshaft thrust surface wear; this process is used on all King bearings. Pro Flange are bearing sets supplied with oversized flanges allowing the thrust surface to be ground to .010", .020", or .030" undersize.
Author:  SlantSixDan [ Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Main and Rod Bearing Brand and Construction type for Race Engine
I might be more impressed by King's propaganda if they didn't feel the need to use words that sound science-y and technical-y but don't actually exist.
Author:  Rick Covalt [ Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Main and Rod Bearing Brand and Construction type for Race Engine
Yes that may be true. I do know some serious race engine builders that use and recommend them. I probably err on the same side as Dadtruck that proper clearances are the most important thing.

Rick
Author:  Dart270 [ Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Main and Rod Bearing Brand and Construction type for Race Engine
I am about to use some King bearings, on recommendations from a very reliable source (a certain Nat'l champ). I have always used the Clevite/Michigan 77s in my older forged motors and not had trouble. I think clearances/finish are the most important things.

Lou
Author:  DadTruck [ Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Main and Rod Bearing Brand and Construction type for Race Engine
Quote:
clearances/finish are the most important things
those along with cleanliness, just because you got a block or crank back from a machine shop that is clean where you can see and is contained in a large plastic bag, that does not mean the internal passages are clean. Get a collection of small ( pencil size ) to large ( toilet brush size ) bottle brushes and using large amounts of a solvent like WD 40, probe and scrub the internal passages. Your new bearings, no matter from who you bought them from, will love you :D .
Quote:
Clevite/Michigan 77s in my older forged motors
and one more comment here, the rod bearing in the forged slant six motors are huge wide by any modern standard, the mains, also from a diameter perspective are out of bounds big. If you are having rod and main bearing durability issues and are using modern main bearing inserts, you need to re think your: cleanliness, clearances and oiling strategy.

concerning oiling strategy, at the 2017 PRI show there was a engine bearing clinic, with a three member panel consisting of:
1) old school MOPAR guy, builds big block 426 Hemi's, 413's ...
2) Ford modular v8 guy
3) Chevy big block guy, builds 1000 HP minimum motors

I asked about using more than 1/2 grooved oiling,, the unanimous response was if you have bearing durability issues: leave 1/2 grooved oiling alone and work on clearances and perhaps oil weight.
Author:  SlantSteve [ Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Main and Rod Bearing Brand and Construction type for Race Engine
Here’s an informative write up from Mahle
https://www.mahle-aftermarket.com/media ... forman.pdf
Author:  DadTruck [ Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Main and Rod Bearing Brand and Construction type for Race Engine
Quote:
informative write up from Mahle
that is good stuff,

amazing world that we live in,
a post in the USA can get a follow up comment from AUS in minutes.

a great time to be alive
Author:  slantzilla [ Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Main and Rod Bearing Brand and Construction type for Race Engine
Honestly? King, Clevite, Michigan will all work fine. Clearance and oil volume are more important than bearing brand.
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