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198 block upgrade to 225 + super six setup
https://www.slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=64542		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  radkoz [ Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:09 am ]
Post subject:  198 block upgrade to 225 + super six setup
hello Gents,

I got a 225 engine pulled from an unknown car in Australia and brought it to Europe for a rebuild project that meant to replace my 198 in a Dodge Dart. It turned out that the 225 block leaks and needs resleeving 2 cylinders. Unfortunately, after first cylinder was done a new leak popped out from the water jacket to deck between the block material and sleeve. I decided to put that block on hold for now and simply upgrade my 198 nominal block to 225 using the crank and rods from the 225 and new 3.44 standard pistons.

While checking the new piston weight it tuned out they are evenly at 516 grams (no pins) as opposed to 465 grams in the 73 Dodge Chassis Service Manual. Do you Guys think this is a problem?
is there anything I should be particularly aware of in getting a 225 crank and rods to an 198 block?

Thank you in advance

Attachments:
File comment: 225 block
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File comment: 225 crank
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File comment: 225 crank
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File comment: 225 crank
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File comment: 225 crank
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Author:  Charrlie_S [ Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 198 block upgrade to 225 + super six setup
I would not worry about the piston weight, as long as all the pistons are close to each other. Inline six cyl engines, do not get the cranks balanced with the rods/pistons. Just go ahead and install the 225 parts into the 198 block. Forged crank 225 engines use the same block as 198 engines.
Author:  Dart270 [ Tue Feb 25, 2020 4:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 198 block upgrade to 225 + super six setup
Charlie is right on all counts. Go for it.

Lou
Author:  radkoz [ Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 198 block upgrade to 225 + super six setup
Thank you Gents!
Author:  justa170 [ Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 198 block upgrade to 225 + super six setup
Quote:
is there anything I should be particularly aware of in getting a 225 crank and rods to an 198 block?
Be aware that you can now build a long-rod 225 (RG block, 225 crank, highly-prized 198 rods), which many people on this board feel is an excellent idea. :)

Shame I'm not in Europe right now. I'd have an shiny NOS Carter BBD 6537s to sell you. :wink:
Author:  radkoz [ Wed Mar 04, 2020 8:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 198 block upgrade to 225 + super six setup
Gents, another issue in the project - machine shop that specialises in head work put new but adopted valves that weight significantly more than the oem ones, they have flat head and thicker neck. do you think this could be a problem for standard springs operating at street use rpm?

I asked them why not to put standard valves and valve guides? they said that since the head construction is not originally designed for valve guides they would not guarantee that putting aftermarket valve guides will not compromise its integrity. Do u think they are worrying too much? even if the head is corroded significantly in the water jacket area?

They have good reputation but never seen a slant six head in in their lives before.

Thanks!

P.S. justa170 so what's my 198 crank rods are worth these days?
Author:  THOR [ Wed Mar 04, 2020 9:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 198 block upgrade to 225 + super six setup
I would tell them not to worry about the valve guides whatsoever. Pertaining to the weight of the valves, do you have part numbers for the pieces they are installing? If you are keeping street RPM (Say 5,000 max) I'd imagine you will be fine. You'll want to make sure that the installed height of the valves will work with your cam; and if they are cutting the head any significant amount you'll definitely want them to check the rocker-to-valve tip relationship.

The 198 stuff is worth plenty to people who desperately want it (me for example) but I imagine there's much less demand on your side of the planet than ours here in the U.S. Shipping them would likely be a not-insignificant cost. If you pop over to the "Parts Wanted" classifieds here you will see folks actively pursuing them.

~THOR~
Author:  justa170 [ Wed Mar 04, 2020 2:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 198 block upgrade to 225 + super six setup
Quote:
Do u think they are worrying too much? even if the head is corroded significantly in the water jacket area?
I think a lot of people here have used valve guides without any problems. My guess is that if the head is too corroded to support guides, you'd probably want another head, anyway.
Quote:
P.S. justa170 so what's my 198 crank rods are worth these days?
They are rare, but there aren't too many people looking at any given time, so... I might expect to pay about $200 for a set in the USA. That's not a lot of money, but it's more than some of us have paid for complete, rebuildable slant six motors. (Again, others in these forums will have a more informed perspective.)
Author:  radkoz [ Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 198 block upgrade to 225 + super six setup
Hi Gents,

Engine is almost done and I did final checks on the camshaft and this is what came up:

intake opening: 20 degree BTDC
intake fully opened: 112-118 degree ATDC
intake closed: 85 degree BTDC

exhaust opening: 127 degree ATDC
exhaust fully opened: 109-100 degree BTDC
exhaust closed: 30 degree ATDC

The engine is defacto built to factory standard Super Six with Carter BBD and 0.040 pistons.

I am not sure about this camshaft as it came of from an engine in Australia and I dont have any specs for it.

Could you give me an idea on what this camshaft is and what I can expect from the engine running with it? Will it move the car?

Thanks a lot :)
Rad

Attachments:
camshaft measurment 225 rebuild.jpg
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Author:  radkoz [ Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 198 block upgrade to 225 + super six setup
adding some pics of the engine

Attachments:
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slant2.jpg
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slant1.jpg
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Author:  Rob Simmons [ Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 198 block upgrade to 225 + super six setup
Very cool project! Others will surely chime in with ideas on the cam.

You have a unique project for Europe! I was very tempted to take my 1972 Dart Swinger with me both times I was stationed in Germany.
Author:  Dart270 [ Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 198 block upgrade to 225 + super six setup
It looks like your cam is about 10 deg retarded. It should be in the range 104-108 deg at peak intake opening. You might be one tooth off on the timing chain. What is the lift? Measure side-side across the narrow part of the cam lobe, then base to peak and subtract those numbers to get gross cam lift, then multiply by 1.5 to get valve lift.

Maybe someone else can check my numbers, as my head may not be working yet today...

Engine looks great!!

Lou
Author:  Greg Ondayko [ Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 198 block upgrade to 225 + super six setup
can someone explain the balancing process mentioned by charlie in the previous repiles in this post.
Is it because the crank pins only have one rod / piston / Assembly per pin unlike v or boxer engines?

I was just curious..



Feel Free to put in another thread as to not clog up this fine document.

Greg
Author:  Dart270 [ Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 198 block upgrade to 225 + super six setup
An inline 6 crank and reciprocating assy is inherently balanced with no bob weight offset from the rod and piston needed. This is a fundamental symmetry of an inline 6 and is not the case for V8s and many other types. In other words, it doesn't matter what the rod and piston weigh for a Slant 6. It does matter for V8s and I think all 4 cyls. For an inline 6, you just need to balance the crank by itself, then make sure the pistons are all the same weight and same for all the rods. Don't believe I've never weighed a stock 225 piston that was less than 500 g. More like 550, IIRC, but I may be remembering inaccurately.

Lou
Author:  SpaceFrank [ Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 198 block upgrade to 225 + super six setup
The stock slant six head will definitely support aftermarket valve guides. The machine shop I use in Houston surprised me by installing rather large-diameter bronze guides, but both heads they've built for me have worked just fine.
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