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Oil pump gear worn out way too fast
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Author:  lgu32 [ Tue Dec 06, 2022 4:32 am ]
Post subject:  Oil pump gear worn out way too fast
I am inspecting my 170 turbo engine internals during the winter season. It was a fresh built one year ago. Had a new cam from OGC (new core also) and new pump (local shop sold it to me. cant remember which brand it was). Pump gear is almost gone. It has 2000 kms which equals to 1250 miles. No racing but driving around the city and some highway. 4.10 gears will keep the highway speed at 60 MPH max (3500+ rpm).

As 6 bolt pumps does exist anymore I have to built this again with a new 5 bolt pump. The method with 6 bolt pump was clear to do but how to add some extra oil for the gears with 5 bolt pump.

Image
Author:  Killer6 [ Tue Dec 06, 2022 6:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Oil pump gear worn out way too fast
Looks like the gear wasn't pressed on far enough, and may not even be square to the cam/pump body.
Author:  lgu32 [ Tue Dec 06, 2022 7:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Oil pump gear worn out way too fast
It was like all pumps I have seen. I had no modifications for it. There was also a ”cam button” controlling cam position. And the OGC cam gear is like new.

This comes too heavy for me if I have pull the engine yearly out for a pump replacement. Early A doesnt have so much room pump will come out without engine removal.

BUT if an oiler can improve gear lifetime I will do it. Just how to do it with 5 bolt pump?
Author:  Dart270 [ Tue Dec 06, 2022 7:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Oil pump gear worn out way too fast
That is unfortunate. I almost always use regrind cams on old cores, and always used/old pumps (no new gears). What is the history of that oil pump and gear? If made/rebuilt after about 1995, I would not trust it. Not a bad idea to do extra oiling, but I have no experience with that, sorry. Why not reuse your old pump and gear? I have been doing this for about 15-20 yrs on multiple motors (including plenty of racing and high RPM) and have had no trouble.

I proabaly am pretty lucky too, but this strategy has worked for several people. I just took apart a race engine with a water jacket leak (built 2009) and will definitely reuse the pump. It had good oil pressure, so I'll use it again...

Lou
Author:  lgu32 [ Tue Dec 06, 2022 8:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Oil pump gear worn out way too fast
That engine got everything brand new at 2021. The block was bored for new pistons. The crank was polished for new set of 0.01 bearings. The oil pump was brand new from the shop.

The only part from previous engine was head which was also the shop. Both the head and block were surfaced for better head gasket contact - this was with boost.

I have to get crank regrinded as there is some bearing signs.

But the oil pump gear is gone. I assume the next pump will do the same and thats why I am planning to add a sprayer. But how to do it with 5 bolt pump?

I do not have pre 1995 oil pumps. Or any new in stock. Have to buy another.
Author:  DadTruck [ Tue Dec 06, 2022 8:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Oil pump gear worn out way too fast
there is this classic Doc Dutra article

https://www.slantsix.org/articles/oil-p ... report.htm

If I ever add a squirter to an oil pump gear, will look at using something like what is shown in the photo in this ad

https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-vol ... vvEALw_wcB

it is a diesel engine piston oil squirter, basically a hollow bolt with a banjo fitting, similar to what is used for the brake line connection to a disk brake caliper.

Drill into the main oil gally in the block, tap as needed to mount the squirter.

About all diesel engines have piston cooling oil jet nozzles, I have not researched this enough to know what one would be best, but I was going to add a sprayer to the oil pump gear, this is how I would do that.

And if you have a six-bolt oil pump that you want to re-use, it is not difficult to remove the damaged gear and press on a new one.
To remove the damaged gear
1) Using a feeler gauge determine the free gap between the oil pump body and gear.
2) Remove the oil pump rotor cover from the oil pump.
3) get a sturdy-hard piece of 2 x 4 long enough to support the oil pump body and cut a hole through it large enough to allow the rotor to pass into.
4) position the oil pump body on the 2 x 4 so the rotor is above the cut hole, do this on a concrete - hard floor.
5) using a flat ended steel drift that has a drive end just a bit smaller than the shaft diameter and a 3-pound hammer, drive the oil pump shaft through the gear. That releases the gear, the rotor will fall into the hole cut into the 2 x 4.

to install the gear
1) heat the gear in an oven, I use a toaster oven to 400F. I let the gear set in the hot oven for at least 45 minutes to get good heat penetration. I have the toaster oven close to the station where I will be installing the gear.
2) have the oil pump body with the rotor fully supported, set on the 2 x 4 used previously, on a sturdy surface, with the end that accepts the gear facing up.
3) have a shim on the shaft that will set the gap between the oil pump body and gear. Use a larger washer the proper thickness, split so it can be removed.
4) Have the 3-pound hammer nearby in case you need to give the gear a hit to seat it to depth.
5) wearing gloves and moving quickly, remove the gear from the oven, set it on to the oil pump shaft, it should slide easily in place or nearly in place.
6) If needed use the hammer to move the gear to the correct depth and pull the shims away.
Author:  lgu32 [ Tue Dec 06, 2022 12:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Oil pump gear worn out way too fast
Hard to get parts:

- slant six oil pumps with 6 bolt mounting
- pre 1990 oil pumps for slant six
- hardened replacement gears for slant six oil pump
- replacement gears w/o hardening for slant six oil pump

Probably I just buy a new pump and try to made good my best time slip before the gear is gone.
Author:  kesteb [ Thu Dec 08, 2022 3:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Oil pump gear worn out way too fast
Do you have a windage tray installed?
Author:  lgu32 [ Fri Dec 09, 2022 4:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Oil pump gear worn out way too fast
Quote:
Do you have a windage tray installed?
No I havent.

I will check the cam depth in the block. It shows in my picture (previous page) that the cam is not centered to pump. Sad I found it now. If I add a spacer the lifters which are already used will get "a new touch" to the cam. Probably it is not a good idea to shift the cam location.

I will do also a new design sprayer. As I dont have 6 bolt pump I will do it different way.
Author:  Rick Covalt [ Fri Dec 09, 2022 3:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Oil pump gear worn out way too fast
Quote:
As I dont have 6 bolt pump I will do it different way.
Keep us posted :D :D
Author:  volaredon [ Sat Dec 10, 2022 8:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Oil pump gear worn out way too fast
Last year I found a new 6 bolt pump, was in a "Mcquay Norris " box but by the metal tag in the pump (and if I'm deciphering the "code" on it correctly) it's actually a sealed power brand pump made in 1981.
Found on ebay, strangely in the next town over from me, I think he had 2 to sell at the time, I just bought the 1.
I took it apart and cleaned up a little casting flash, put it back together with new fel pro gaskets, and it's on and working great. I haven't seen this guy on ebay much since.
I don't remember the username, but it led me to believe it was someone from a now closed but long standing Bumper to Bumper store here in town. They used to have several stores around, in about an 80 mile radius of here and a substantial warehouse here too. All of the stores they had within about 20 mile radius of the warehouse are now memories, ( buildings are still there but empty) and the main store right across the alley from the warehouse had a pretty substantial machine shop attached.
Author:  volaredon [ Sat Dec 10, 2022 8:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Oil pump gear worn out way too fast
Ok/I went back and looked. I found in my ebay "purchases" when I bought it, too old for seller name to pop up with the details. It showed 2 PNs. One the mcquay number and the other the sealed power number. I did a quick search for both numbers on feebay and all that come up and have pix show a 5 bolt pump, some showing e machined boss where the 6th hole would be and some "not". Mine though is definitely 6 bolt.
They do show up some times though (the 6 bolt ones)

One thing, every single one that came up in today's search on feebay was listed at double or more what I paid for mine back in Mar '21. Sad.
I was on there last night just looking at /6 stuff in general and there's a guy on there under username (something like) username "hot rod rich" that appears to be selling a /6 piece by piece all used parts.
he had an original (used) aluminum oil pump listed for what I thought was a ridiculous price, don't remember exactly but it was in the $90s. I don't need anything else for mine at the moment , but I just like to look there once in a while for the hell of it, anyway.
Author:  Dart270 [ Mon Dec 12, 2022 5:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Oil pump gear worn out way too fast
Lgu32,

I may be able to ship you a good used pump, probably a 6-bolt. Give me time to recharge after our teaching semester and get some free time. Maybe ask me in the 2nd week of January if you have not found something. It will be free for the pump, but you will need to pay the shipping.

Lou
Author:  lgu32 [ Fri Dec 16, 2022 8:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Oil pump gear worn out way too fast
Quote:
Lgu32,

I may be able to ship you a good used pump, probably a 6-bolt. Give me time to recharge after our teaching semester and get some free time. Maybe ask me in the 2nd week of January if you have not found something. It will be free for the pump, but you will need to pay the shipping.

Lou
Thanks. Sounds good. I will replace the pump anyway as those gears are not available separately. I will PM you.

I have had the base of distributor in its place. It has been only for a cam sensor. Now I will do the cam sensor to pump eccentric with a drilled threaded bolt on the cam. Then I have empty hole to the gear where I will add a oil sprayer of my own built. I already have external oil line for the turbo so I can split it and spray some oil to cam/pump gear.

Here comes couple of pictures of parts.

Image

OGC cam is like new. Only light polishing on the cam gear surface

Image

Oil pump gear is totally lost. Look at the surface. It does not look like the gears will slip to each other. It look strange.

I am planning to replace the harmonic balancer as well I have ordered a new set of roller timing gear.

I have had the same balancer for 225 and 170 engines. I have also had the same timing set on both engines. And the 3rd "same" with 2 different engines has been the rattling timing chain when cold.

At autumn when garaged this car for winter season I replaced my alternator.

Image

Together with adding a T03/04 turbo I used that small alternator. It was way too less output power for all external accessories.

Image

So I had to pick this big one even it was a pain to get fit there. But it makes enough power from the idle so it is fine.

THE ANOTHER DIFFERENCE IS that the timing chain does not rattle with that big alternator. The rattling stopped immediately after alternator has bolted on and belted and wired.

I have been thinking why this happened. The harmonic balancer is odd compared to other engines. The outer mass which is connected with rubber also drives water pump and ALTERNATOR.

The big alternator has way much "mass" and "inertia" compared to small one.

The mass and inertia of an alternator does something for the harmonic balancer resonance frequency. Which frequency is a function of the rubber hardness as well as the mass of the outer ring. And my alternator replacement does a change to that resonance...

Does the camshaft vibrate because of the harmonic balancer is "out of tune"?

To be continued....
Author:  Dart270 [ Sun Dec 18, 2022 2:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Oil pump gear worn out way too fast
OK, we'll be in touch about the pump.

Your rattle may be coming from your harmonic balancer being split/cracked down the keyway? I had a bad rattle once and it was this failure. I must have angled the balancer while installing and it cracked. It took about 2 weeks of driving around for the rattle to get loud.

That is weird about your alternator output. I have really never had an alternator that did not keep up with demand. I run 45-55 amp mini alts or stock type 40-60 amp units and those run all the EFI, MSD ignition, elec fan, lights, fine. I guess I do not have AC or any extraneous gadgets? I think the car had 25 A from the factory, but I only ran that with the carb and points ignition and went up to 40+ amps by the time I installed EFI and such.

Lou
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