Slant Six Forum :: Headlight ?

SSD, hit the nail on the head-- repeatedly.

Hella and Autopal lamps both fit and provide excellent service.

You will DEFINETLY need relays to run them, or you'll cook your wiring-- namely the hi-beam switch and the headlight switch.

The easiest thing to do is to utilize your stock wiring harness. Run your lead from alt. (or other acceptable power source), cut your harness, splice in your wires, and then hide the relays, grounds and whole mess under the battery tray.

You can source the lamps and relays from a local 4X4 shop

Oh yeah, "xenon" lamps are in the 400.00 price range, and are somewhat difficult to adapt- projection, power converter, bulbs, etc.

i do have to say, their sealed beam halogen xrtavision is a good product for the price-- and a straight replacement that performs well without any modifications to the system.

<<Very important, Xenon "retrofits" are illegal and dangerous.>>
True dat. Cibie spec lamps are illegal in my neck of the woods and the man has really been cracking down on that of late.

BTW, Dan, did you do the site on the amp gauge to volt gauge conversion?

I'll have to respectfully disagree, I don't think an ammeter is more useful

I am in the middle of doing a relay upgrade for my headlights amongst other things and am pondering replacing the bulbs as well. Where would one go to get bosch lamps locally?

Author:	Tallzag [ Tue Feb 03, 2004 1:05 pm ]
Post subject:	Headlight ?
I had to get a new headlight for my Duster the other day and they said they sold halogen headlights for the Duster. Will these just snap in and work fine? Will it overload my electrical system? Just curious, would like to get more headlight power if possible.

Author:	Dart270 [ Tue Feb 03, 2004 1:18 pm ]
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Yep, you should have no problems and the lights will be much better. Lou

Author:	slantvaliant [ Tue Feb 03, 2004 1:42 pm ]
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Hey, go ahead and spring for the pair! Also consider running headlight relays. Fewer old connections + less old wire on the power side => less resistance => higher voltage to the lights => brighter lights. Check the voltage you're getting at the plug now. Good lighting is one of the least expensive safety improvements you can make.

Author:	SlantSixDan [ Wed Feb 04, 2004 7:28 am ]
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Agreed on good lighting being a huge safety advantage, but you have to make sure you're actually getting lights that will be better than before. There's a lot of overhyped junk on the market being sold as an "upgrade" when in fact it's no such thing. Prime examples are any headlamp or bulb that has any kind of blue or purple coating or appearance when turned off (e.g. CoolBlue, SilverStar, SuperWhite, etc.). These don't improve your seeing, and they reduce the amount of usable light coming from the headlamps. Be especially careful of any headlamp product sold using the term "Xenon", which is the most over-used (and abused) term in the industry. Xenon headlamps exist, but odds are excellent that a product sold as "Xenon" and advertised as fitting our cars is not a Xenon headlamp (and in many cases is illegal and/or performance-reducing). Don't assume headlamp "A" is better than headlamp "B" just 'cause the package says "Halogen" or "Xenon", or just because the counterman at the parts store says so. Lots of different headlamps will fit the buckets in our cars. Which headlamps to buy really depends on how well you need to see/what kind of driving conditions you face after dark, and how much you want to spend. City dwellers usually only need their headlamps to let other people know they're there, country and mountain dwellers often need really GOOD headlamps, which do not come from the parts store or JC Whitney. Yes also on relays, see http://www.danielsternlighting.com/tech ... elays.html The procedure for checking voltage loss in the headlamp circuit is slightly more complicated than just putting a voltmeter on the headlamp socket. Conditions: ALL headlamps connected - you may have to backprobe the sockets, but removing the socket from the headlamp invalidates the test. Engine off, circuit to be tested (low or high beam) energized First, connect your voltmeter across the battery + and - terminals. Record the voltage reading, this is the battery voltage. Connect your voltmeter positive lead to the battery (+) and the voltmeter negative lead to the + terminal of whichever headlamp beam you're testing -- use the bulb farthest away from the battery. With the lamps on, your voltmeter will give a direct reading of the voltage drop. Write it down. Then connect the positive voltmeter lead to the ground terminal of the headlamp bulb, and the negative voltmeter lead to the (-) terminal of the headlamp bulb, and the negative voltmeter lead to the (-) terminal of the battery. With the lamps on, your voltmeter will again give a direct reading of the voltage drop. Write it down. Add the two voltage drop figures obtained, and this is the total circuit drop. Subtract the total circuit drop from the battery voltage to find the voltage at which your bulbs are operating. Remember, light output drops exponentially, not linearly, with voltage drop. Small voltage drops = large light losses. The formula for determining the change in light output with a change in voltage is: lumens @old volts x [(new volts /old volts) ^3.4] = lumens @new volts So for simplicity's sake, let's take a 9006 low beam bulb rated 1000 lumens at 12.8 Volts and plug in different voltages. 10.5V : 510 lumens 11.0V : 597 lumens 11.5V : 695 lumens 12.0V : 803 lumens 12.5V : 923 lumens 12.8V : 1000 lumens <--Rated output voltage 13.0V : 1054 lumens 13.5V : 1198 lumens 14.0V : 1356 lumens <--Rated life voltage 14.5V : 1528 lumens So as you can see, there are LARGE differences in lamp output with small differences in voltage input.

Author:	junkyardhero [ Wed Feb 04, 2004 1:01 pm ]
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SSD, hit the nail on the head-- repeatedly. <<G>> Hella and Autopal lamps both fit and provide excellent service. You will DEFINETLY need relays to run them, or you'll cook your wiring-- namely the hi-beam switch and the headlight switch. The easiest thing to do is to utilize your stock wiring harness. Run your lead from alt. (or other acceptable power source), cut your harness, splice in your wires, and then hide the relays, grounds and whole mess under the battery tray. You can source the lamps and relays from a local 4X4 shop, and score some good wire and connectors from the local hardware store. Don't forget a in-line fuse or fuseable link! Total job is about 115bux, including the beer. Oh yeah, "xenon" lamps are in the 400.00 price range, and are somewhat difficult to adapt- projection, power converter, bulbs, etc. -JYH 64 Dart, BRIGHT lights 69 Cuda, even BRIGHTER lights SoCal Baby, SoCal

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Author:	SlantSixDan [ Wed Feb 04, 2004 1:15 pm ]
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Quote: SSD, hit the nail on the head-- repeatedly. Thanks, JYH. This is my job, I do it all day long. Automotive lighting and very little else. Quote: Hella and Autopal lamps both fit and provide excellent service. They fit, but I disagree about the "excellent" part. Autopal lamps, made in India, are intended for 3rd-world markets (cheap crud) and are "bootlegged" into North America. Hella's materials and build quality are first rate, to be sure, and Hella is a very well established lighting company that has a lot of good products in their line, but their H4 headlamps in standard sealed-beam sizes are not among them. Then there's all the no-name junk in the JC Whitney catalogue and the "looks kewl" crapola aimed at kids with Hondas. The pick of the bunch in standard-format headlamps: Cibie and Bosch. Take a look at a quick comparison I put together in the light tunnel: Here are photometric ("light tunnel") data for the Cibie 7" round and the Hella 7" round H4 E-code headlamp in low beam mode. Same bulb, same power supply, same light tunnel. http://ns5.vrx.net/dsl/Photometry/Hella_7_Iso.jpg http://ns5.vrx.net/dsl/Photometry/Cibie_7_Iso.jpg If you're not familiar with isocandela diagrams, these will look like random squiggles and lines. Think of it as a topographic or "contour" map of the correctly-aimed beam pattern. Each differently-colored line represents the threshold of a particular intensity level, with the color legend located to the right of the isocandela diagram. The diagram is plotted on a chart calibrated in degrees. Straight ahead is represented by (0,0), that is, zero degrees up-down and zero degrees left-right. To get a mental approximation of the units and amounts under discussion here: Parking lamp: About 60 to 100 candela Front turn signal: About 500 candela Glaring high-beam Daytime Running Lamps (e.g. Saturn): About 8000 cd. Things to notice about these two diagrams: (1) The Cibie produces a much wider beam pattern than the Hella. The 1000 candela line of the Cibie's beam pattern extends from 25 degrees Left to 25 degrees right, while the 1000 candela line of the Hella extends from 18 degrees Left to 20 degrees Right. At a distance of 50 feet from the car, this means the 1000 candela-and-brighter portion of the Hella's beam is 10.5 feet narrower than that of the Cibie. The 300 cd contour of the Cibie's pattern is far wider, extending from 43 degrees Left to 50 degrees Right, compared to 26 Left to 25 Right for the Hella. This means the overall useful width of the beam pattern at 25 feet from the car, as perceived by the driver, will be 40.7 feet for the Cibie and 22.3 feet for the Hella. 2) The total luminous flux (overall amount of light) within the beam pattern is 695 lumens for the Cibie, 463 lumens for the Hella - the Cibie is 50.1% more efficient. (the TLF data is listed as "Luminous Flux" in the readings up above the isocandela diagram) 3) The high beams for these two lamps (isocandela diagrams not yet scanned in) are very similar in overall performance and amount of light -- the critical difference is that the Cibie's high beam hot spot is located closer to (0,0) and closer to its low beam hot spot. The Hella's high beam and low beam hot spots are separated by a fairly large vertical amount, such that setting the lows where they belong results in most of the high beam light going up in the trees, but pulling the high beams down so they send light straight ahead puts the low beams 10 feet in front of the car. Bosch lamps perform very similarly to Cibie lamps, but you have to make sure you're getting Bosch car headlamps -- a lot of Bosch motorcycle headlamps are imported to North America. They look almost the same and fit in place, but their beam pattern is designed for motorcycles, not for cars. Then there's options in what bulb to put inside your headlamps. All kinds of companies, both reputable and fly-by-night, are hawking various bulbs with blue or purple glass. Reject any bulb that uses anything other than CLEAR glass, regardless of the marketing claims made! It's tough to repeat this enough times; the bulb companies spend a lot of $$ pushing high-profit blue bulbs. Other "sound bites" worth remembering: There's no such thing as "100W of light for 55W of electricity", and there's no such thing as a headlight bulb that will make bad headlamps into good ones. Quote: You will DEFINETLY need relays to run them, or you'll cook your wiring-- namely the hi-beam switch and the headlight switch. This is overstating the case a little. Most factory wiring is safe with standard-wattage H4 bulbs (60/55), and this makes sense because this wattage is very similar to that of the original 7" sealed beam. Having a car fire or switch meltdown is highly unlikely with standard-wattage bulbs. BUT, there is almost always a great deal of loss (voltage drop) in even brand new car headlight wiring, and science has not yet given us the wiring that gets better with age! Installing relays and heavy-gauge wiring will significantly improve the performance of the headlamps. Quote: The easiest thing to do is to utilize your stock wiring harness. Run your lead from alt. (or other acceptable power source), cut your harness, splice in your wires, and then hide the relays, grounds and whole mess under the battery tray. See http://www.danielsternlighting.com/tech ... elays.html Quote: You can source the lamps and relays from a local 4X4 shop That's often true, and I don't like to trumpet loudly in public, but I doubt a local 4x4 shop offers Mopar owner discounts on lights, relays, bulbs, etc. like I do...! Quote: Oh yeah, "xenon" lamps are in the 400.00 price range, and are somewhat difficult to adapt- projection, power converter, bulbs, etc. Very important, Xenon "retrofits" are illegal and dangerous. The only safe and (sometimes) legal way to get Xenon headlamps in a car not originally equipped is to replace the ENTIRE headlamp assembly with one designed and engineered specifically as a Xenon headlamp. Lots of places sell halogen headlamps with "Xenon bulbs": NO! Lots of other places sell halogen headlamps with base-adapted "HID bulbs": NO! And even if you do shell out the big bucks for real Xenon headlights, that's no guarantee they'll be any good. Sylvania learned an embarrassing lesson about putting crappy products on the market with their Xenarc line...

Author:	junkyardhero [ Wed Feb 04, 2004 3:36 pm ]
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Sorry, i should've qualified that... <<Hella and Autopal lamps both fit and provide excellent service.>> For the price, that is. The hella sealed beams are junk, unless you've got a 6 light bar on your roof. <<BFG>> But for the for the record i can't comment on the bulbs, i bought new units from the parts store-- you know the bright green ones by the big fart tips and shifters. Just kidding! They're standard clear, please don't hit me with a fan belt! <<That's often true, and I don't like to trumpet loudly in public, but I doubt a local 4x4 shop offers Mopar owner discounts on lights, relays, bulbs, etc. like I do...!>> yeah, that's true. luckily, i have a lot of friends in low places. laughs But all kidding aside, i took a long hard look at your site before making my move-- of course, after having done all the leg work, i've thought differently. hindsight is always 20/20 <<Sylvania learned an embarrassing lesson about putting crappy products on the market with their Xenarc line...>> LOL! very true. But, i do have to say, their sealed beam halogen xrtavision is a good product for the price-- and a straight replacement that performs well without any modifications to the system. <<Very important, Xenon "retrofits" are illegal and dangerous.>> True dat. Cibie spec lamps are illegal in my neck of the woods and the man has really been cracking down on that of late. No reason to give cause to be pulled over only to have a lamp busted out by an angry cop. Check your local laws! grumble grumble BTW, Dan, did you do the site on the amp gauge to volt gauge conversion? That is worth it's freekin' weight in beer! -JYH 40miles from the mill, i'm droppin it into overdrive! PCR, SoCal Baby!

Author:	SlantSixDan [ Wed Feb 04, 2004 4:55 pm ]
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Quote: i do have to say, their sealed beam halogen xrtavision is a good product for the price-- and a straight replacement that performs well without any modifications to the system. That is true. For the moment, the Xtravision is probably the best off-the-shelf sealed beam. General Electric is about to release (in about 2 weeks) a new line of headlamps their engineer tells me will be the best on the market. We'll see; I'm due to receive samples on the day Job One ships out of GE. The SilverStar/CoolBlue/TruView junk is just a blue bulb inside a sealed beam, of course... Quote: <<Very important, Xenon "retrofits" are illegal and dangerous.>> True dat. Cibie spec lamps are illegal in my neck of the woods and the man has really been cracking down on that of late. H'm...what's your neck of the woods, and what exactly do you mean by "Cibie spec lamps"? There's not really any such a thing. The Autopals and Hellas you mention are conceptually identical to the Cibies, it's just the name on the lens, the precision of the optics and the overall performance that differ. I haven't heard of anyone getting pulled over for properly-aimed H4 headlights with proper-color (not blue or yellow) bulbs, in DECADES! Tell me what you know, more info is usually better than less. Quote: BTW, Dan, did you do the site on the amp gauge to volt gauge conversion? No, and I don't mind saying I think the guy who did is full of manure. I've seen the site, and the guy claims that Mopar ammeters are unreliable, they always fail, etc. etc. blah blah blahbitty blah blah. Baloney. As is the case with every part of our cars, when you drive a decades-old machine, you need to check for wear and deterioration in places not mentioned in the service manual. One of these is the ammeter connections. I would NEVER trade my ammeter for a voltmeter! The ammeter is way more useful.

Author:	Pierre [ Wed Feb 04, 2004 9:40 pm ]
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I'll have to respectfully disagree, I don't think an ammeter is more useful ... you could be drawing a bagillion amps, but a bagillion amps while your battery is at 2v is different then when the battery is at 14v. It doesn't matter how much current your drawing from other accessories, it matters at what voltage the battery is at to indicate its state of charge (and the state of your charging system). But I digress... I am in the middle of doing a relay upgrade for my headlights amongst other things and am pondering replacing the bulbs as well. Where would one go to get bosch lamps locally?

Author:	SlantSixDan [ Thu Feb 05, 2004 7:41 am ]
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Quote: I'll have to respectfully disagree, I don't think an ammeter is more useful Well, that's why they make ice cream in more than just one flavor, not everyone likes the same kind. Me, I'd rather know what's happening with my electrical system in real time, right this second (ammeter) than know its general condition over time (voltmeter). Quote: I am in the middle of doing a relay upgrade for my headlights amongst other things and am pondering replacing the bulbs as well. Where would one go to get bosch lamps locally? Usually, one wouldn't find them locally. They're on the shelf at Canadian Tire in Canada, but usually if you find Bosch 7" lamps in the US, they're motorcycle lamps (the giveaway is the "SAE M" and "MOTORCYCLE" markings on the lens). You have to order Bosch or Cibie headlamps from someone (myself or someone else) who stocks 'em.

Author:	slantvaliant [ Thu Feb 05, 2004 8:49 am ]
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"Ammeter vs Voltmeter" would make an interesting thread on its own - and a fun one at that.

Author:	SlantSixDan [ Thu Feb 05, 2004 8:50 am ]
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"Tastes great!" "Less filling!"

Author:	ShivaDart [ Thu Feb 05, 2004 11:13 am ]
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I'm glad I'm a city person, I buy cheap lights from Walmart and they work great, then again for a little while my wiring was screwed up and they only put out about five feet of light, but still worked great for my purposes(who needs lights when you have street lamps every 20 ft)

Author:	ET's_Swinger [ Thu Feb 05, 2004 12:35 pm ]
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Got a couple questions for you, Dan. 1. Any chance of seeing photometric data of a regular (cheap Sylvania, GE) halogen 7" sealed beam? Would give us a starting point to compare the Hella and Cibie data to. 2. If we want to buy lights from you, how do we go about doing it? Lots of great and useful lighting info here. Thought I knew alot about lighting, but am now humbled by how much I don't know.

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Author:	Pierre [ Thu Feb 05, 2004 5:57 pm ]
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Hmm so I go down to kragen and they have the xtravision halogens in stock. After I finish wiring the relays, I come to install the lights, only to discover that the spade terminal on the back of the bulb is too big for 1/4", too small for 3/8" spade. All the terminals availible I've seen locally are 1/4" or 3/8". They do have a small harness, that plugs into the back of the bulbs and has about 4" worth of wire coming out of it, but they are only like 18awg, stock. I suppose a small length of 18awg wouldn't hurt but if I can find the right terminals that would be a plus. How do you folks that did the upgrades wire them up?