I don't mind spending the money, it was just when I look at the total cost of this one particular upgrade, its a bit spooky.

when I figure I have over 2k in the engine alone already (headwork was $800 plus alone) spending the same amount over again was a bit of sticker shock.

when I figure that I would be buying one piece at a time of a peroid of x months, its no too bad.

Well, before I went to EFI, I had a turbo engine with a very screwed up carb. Out of the box, using a base map that is still way off, it's a lot more drivable than the bodgered Holley. I still have a ways to go, though - once I had something that ran, I decided to take it to get new tires and a professionally built exhaust. Once I pick it up from the muffler shop, I'll be able to get it all dialed in.

Once I get it all dialed in, I hope to be able to hold a correct air/fuel ratio from idling with the throttle closed all the way up to 10 psi or so of boost. To do that with a Holley would require somehow increasing the jet size as boost pressure increases, or running a draw through carb which rules out using an intercooler. There's a coupe of systems that can get a blow through carb to run on that sort of boost, but the mixture will be far from optimal, which would hurt power.

So I hope to put together an engine that's just as drivable as a stock slant six with a precisely tuned BBD, but will eventually have enough power to take on unsuspecting smallblocks. And the turbo / EFI combo seemed like the best way to do that.

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"Mad Scientist" Matt Cramer
'66 Dart - turbocharged 225
My blog - Mad Scientist Matt's Lair

Matt. Let's help each other towards that goal. Let us know what your challenges are, and how you are progressing. ARE you using Mega Squirt? What version do you have?
Sam

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I need info to see if I even CAN do it. I have a big cam and 10.5 to 1 comp, and a bunch of headwork.

Your cam and compression may be too much for a turbo. But, you could certainly go EFI, and that would work fine. Talk to Dart 270. He has a naturally aspirated slant with a big cam, good headwork, and MEga Squirt, and his car feels much stronger than my Turbo slant. The turbo thing is to keep it mild in daily driving, but I think you can get excellent performance from what you have. How about adding nitro for that 1/4 mile shot?

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what I really wanted was the EFI, I am not looking for a turbo, since I don't have the welding skills I would need to do it myself.

for nitrous I wouldn't feel right unless I went with forged pistons, I just don't feel safe going 10.5 to 1 with cast AND adding the go go juice.

So, about all I have left is EFI. I'll have to drop Lou an email once I get more time.

I know this is a really vague question and hard to answer, but after I am already so "far along" performance wise, what kind of a ballpark HP number could I pick up by going to EFI from this point? is it sort of a percentage deal?

This is just my opinion, and it may generate some discussion here, which is fine. I don;t think EFI really has much more HP potential than a good carb. They have studied this over an over in the car magazines, and pretty much come to the conclussion that a good carb is pretty much as strong as EFI. The thing is, you can tailor your EFI for more precise tuning, which will yield better economy, and maybe better drivability in the long run. I say maybe, because the EFI deal requires alot of fussing, and fiddling to get it right.

What EFI does give you is perhaps the best of both worlds, economy, and power. But I have yet to prove that. My EFI slant so far has not returned the MPG figures that it did when it was carbureted. But then, perhaps that is more the turbo than the EFI. According to some experts out there, Sequential injection is the ultimate aftermarket set up, and will yield a little more power, and better economy.

You really need to ask Lou what he thinks. He went from a strong carb nauturally aspirated set up, to a really strong EFI naturally aspirated set up. So his experience will more nearly duplicate what you are doing.

Is it running now, or is this still in a "project state"?

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its in the "rebuilt-sitting-in-the-garage-untill-I-get-more-money-to-put-it-in-the-car" state.

right now I am .060 over, fully balanced (individually and as a unit), head shaved .090 with oversized valves, block shaved .045 giving me 10.5 to 1 comp according to what the cc's said, holley 390, clifford manifold, and a big ol' clifford cam. headers I have to buy over again, after 20+ something years they finally vaporized. The engine is assembled to that point.

ignition is up in the air right now. thinking of going MSD. I do like the GM HEI conversion idea too, so maybe I'll do that and be ready for the EFI later if I use the 3.8 set up. save some money with that too.

I'd appreciate any advice you can give.

I still have to contact Lou......I have limited time online at work.

hey guys... this thread was to whine about MPEFI cars!

changed spark plugs, changed injectors, removed all the cat and stuff and installed a large headers type custom exhaust with narrow and wideband sensors, got it to a chip burning guy and now is pulling fine. Now I can only complain at my "spare" car being FWD.

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Juan Ignacio Caino

Please use e-mail button istead of PM'ing. I do log in sometimes but I'll be answering quicker thru e-mail.

Right now I seem to have a challenge dialing in its cold-start and warmup settings. Other than that it looks like I've got mine to a point where I can get it tuned reasonably well once my wife and I can find the time. There are a couple other issues that don't relate to the EFI tuning, too - I need to get an intercooler in there and get some good intake plumbing on it. And probably a higher output alternator.

I'm running a Megasquirt V2.2 with the MSnS-E firmware for spark control.

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"Mad Scientist" Matt Cramer
'66 Dart - turbocharged 225
My blog - Mad Scientist Matt's Lair

Matt, it is nice to see you are on the right coast. It seems most slant guys are on the left coast. Wht compression are you running. Have you been aware of detonation problems under boost. What kind of pistons are you running? The intercooler will help with this. You will need to retune your boost areas of the fuel map, as well as the spark map under boost when you get an inter cooler going. Unforutunately, I cannot tell you what kind of inter cooler I have. I bought it used, and had it reconfigued by a local welder. let me know what you are thinking in that area.
Sam

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Try a Volvo 740/760 intercooler on for size; that's what alot of us turbo minivan (yes Mopar. 1989-1990) guys run. Over 275HP, the larger NPR intercooler is popular. They fit w/o too much 'adjusting' and can be found relatively cheap (approx. $20 @'Pull-A-Part' for my Volvo one). As far as SMPI or 'batch-fire,' it depends on purpose. Wanna race or build a hybrid-engined turbo Dodge? Batch-fire. Street performance, better economy? Sequential.

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My wife said "NO!"

I just attended an EFI 101 class, and based on a few things I've learned, I've made a slight change in plans. I'm going to get to work on the intercooler very soon, possibly adding an aluminum radiator while I'm at it, and then taking it straight to the dyno. (I'll post a few things I picked up there in the principles thread.)

I've got a Blackstone intercooler from a SAAB of unknown vintage, and a Mazda MX-6 intercooler. Which one I use is going to depend on which one I can get to fit; I'll most likely use the SAAB piece.

The bottom end is totally stock as far as I know, except for a Fel-Pro head gasket. It doesn't look as though the engine has ever been rebuilt, and I believe it has nearly 200,000 miles on it.

Yeah, I know, I'm a little crazy for trying boost on it. But it still does OK on a compression test, and if I keep it out of detonation, things should be OK. So far I haven't heard it ping.

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"Mad Scientist" Matt Cramer
'66 Dart - turbocharged 225
My blog - Mad Scientist Matt's Lair

That is really cool Matt. I have the book that Ban Strader wrote, Electronic Fuel Injection. Is is not really a how too, but sort of what to buy kind of book. AS reasult of his book, I have registered on EFI101.com I read there from time to time, but they do not include a support group for Accel. But again, I am glad you took this class. You will be a great resource for the rest of us.
Sam

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The big cam could cause you problems with a EFI system, but it can be worked around also if it is a must.

If enough time and money is spent the carb system will make just as much power as a EFI system. But it is far & few between that you find carb systems that are setup good enough to compair with a EFI system. The EFI is easier to get tuned to this efficeint of a state and can be a bit more precise with the fuel & timing control threw the whole RPM & load range. EFI will also destribute the fuel more evenly between the cylinders. "After" it is tuned it will be less problems on a day to day bases and will be easier to ajust to changes that you make to the combo when the time comes. The power gained will most likly be in the drivability and off throttle response range more than the WOT range, which is where the improved fuel economy will come from over "Most" carb systems. But like I said a carb system with enough time and money spent can match the economy & power of a EFI system, its just hard to get them there, but doable.


Jess