I have been reading and searching all weekend and I have a couple questions regaurding adding a turbo to my '68 Dart.

Is there room to retain my A/C system? It doesn't look good to me.

And where is a good source for turbo parts? Ebay seems to have a few great deals and seems to be a better route than to buy a used one and have it rebuilt.

Forged pistons? Needed or not? If so where. Any group purchases or /6 specific suppliers?

I haven't made up my mind on carb or EFI. I think it's going to boil down to my budget and the input of you guys.

Thanks, Chris

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In The 'Articles' Section From The Home Page Of This Site, There Is One About Stroking A /6; Near The Bottom It Talks About Using The Pistons From A 2.2 .... Perhaps With Further Input From Others, More Knowing Than I, You Could Find These Parts Useful...

Newbee to Newbee

Sure, you can keep the AC. It just makes fitting the turbo and intercooler more difficult.

I would not buy a turbo off eBay. The SS Auto Chrome and XS Power turbos are crap. Some of the other stuff is ok like blow off valves and intercoolers. Most factory turbos are from 4 cylinders and are too small for a 225. Just spend the $800 on a Turbonetics turbo and get what the engine needs not what someone wants to sell you. Top End Performance is a Turbonetics dealer. www.racetep.com

Forged pistons will depend upon the power and RPM goals/limits you set. I bought custom forged pistons with pins from Venolia for right about $500. I also bought ductile top rings from Total Seal for about $115, but I'm serious about power and not breaking parts.

Carbs can be made to work. Most people fool with Holleys, but 9000 series AFBs and Edelbrock carbs are easy to set up for blow though use. But with all forced induction the fuel delivery system must be top notch. I'd use 3/8" supply and return lines with a bypass type regulator and a 255LPH EFI pump. Good aftermarket pumps can also be used, but the good ones that last are expensive.

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Joshua

At what level do you think Forged pistons need to be installed? Please be fairly specific. Thanks

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Joshie225 - Very good info


Pistons depend on many things. But if you keep it down to low boost (8-12 psi) I am going to say it is possible to pull this off without forged pistons. As a matter a fact the factory pistons may be better than a lot of the box pistons you can buy. ( I have ran 250hp plus NOS on mopar cast pistons) in big blocks. And the /6 piston seems to be with the same quality. But the Venola piston is a good bet, a very good piston and the price for the quality piston you get is one of the best deals you will get on forged pistons for a /6.

One thing about turboing a engine, You always end up wanting more. It never fails. It just works so good & is the easest power that you will make on a engine. It is also easier on the engine than any other power adder that you can use, it is even easier on a engine than a N/A built motor that will put out equal power.


Turbos - yea dont buy anything as far as turbo off ebay, the rest is fine and has be proven to work. The Intercoolers & waste gates are very good and the price is right.

Here is a good place to buy turbos
http://bgturbokits.com/store/index.php? ... 5737f15e77

The Master Power turbos are what you might call the best of the cheaper turbos. Many people have run them with great results & durability. But ever now and then you will get a bad one, it will die quick if this happens. But most of the time they perform & last good.


Here is a good place you can buy the Garrett TO4E turbo at a great price.
http://www.full-race.com/catalog/produc ... cts_id=250
At $619.00 for a Gerrett this is a good price for a good turbo in this size.

Sizing the turbo is important.How much power do you wish to make? How much of this power do you want to make on pump gas? The TO4E 60trim will give you around 500hp and around 300 to 350hp on pump gas. This is probably a good turbo for most that want a quick little street car. Remember the exhaust side will have big effect on the turbo and its range & HP level. The Master Power turbos you would probably want the P trim exhaust & on the Garrett you would probably want the Stage 5 (which cost extra $150.00) This would also be a very quick spooling setup with these turbo's.

But lets say you wanted to make 400 to 500hp but still do it on pump gas. You could go to something like a T61 to T67 turbo. These turbos will make up to 750hp if you even wished to go this far. But the good thing about them is that you can make a lot of power on low boost and still run pump gas even if you didnt want to go to 750 HP. But to have 400 to 550HP on pump gas is possible. But you also lose some response on the spoolup so you would have to be wanting to race the cars some to make this really a good choice. Although it would still be very streetable you just wouldnt have quick response and need a good stall convertor or a Stick drive to use it. Although this can be done no problem as long as it is what you want.

Your engines Rods will be something you want to spend on. Atleast shotpeen them & have ARP rod bolts installed. Even Cyro treating them is a good idea if you dont have a set of rods made. But atleast get the bolts & shotpeen even if your goals are just 300hp.

About the only turbo's off of other cars I would recamend is the Buick GN or GMC Typhone turbo's. They could give you up to around 375hp, but that would be on race gas because you would be pushing the turbo for its size. The harder you push a turbo the more heat it makes and this is what puts you into pinging & Det, not the HP level.

As far as EFI or carb, The EFI is going to be the best over all. Now the carb can work fine. But cylinder fuel distribution is not good on a /6 and I think it would limit you to low boost if you was to go carb (easy to lean out one cylinder). But it would not be bad to use a carb and then latter you could go with the EFI. Just spent your money on the fuel system in a way that all you would have to change is the regulator (as far as fuel sytem) when the time comes. IT doesnt cost much to mod a carb for blow-thru.


Jess

Thanks for the detailed replys. I have bought a couple turbo books and have been trying to sort out the usefull info. At this point the theories regaurding trim and sizing are a bit confusing to me so I am glad that you guys are pointing me in a direction that will get me close.

I have also spent most of my evenings reading the MS mega manual. Here again all the VE type of talk is scrambling my brain. But I am convinced that it is the way to go. I hope by the time I get everything ordered and installed I will have done enough homework to get it to atleast start. That is going to be a big enough goal for now, fine tuning is just playing to me. We do it all the time at the drag strip with my brothers carburated mustang.

Jess, a 500hp /6? if that is possible please tell me what you think would have to happen for that kind of output. My goal is <10 psi and as much stock parts as possible on my '68. I do agree with the shop peening and aftermarket fasteners. I would do that even if I was building a normally asperated engine. If I can get 300 hp I am going to be happy. Getting it tuned to be gentle on the street and freak a couple ricers out when they smart off is going to make me astatic!

Oh ya... back to the 500 hp /6. I have a '70 Swinger waiting in the wings. I would love to swap out the V8 for a /6. Just because I can!

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The biggest problem I'd have if I wanted AC on my turbo Dart is that the custom fuel rail occupies the spot where a stock AC compressor would go. I'd have to come up with some creative bracketry for sure.

The stock slugs are reported to be good for 10 psi of boost, at least. The biggest thing to watch out for is detonation. Pinging, not boost, is the biggest danger to your pistons. Of course, I've kind of gone off the cheap end and decided to run a turbo on a dead stock bottom end with nearly 200,000 miles on it.

I have a Mitsu TE04 turbo on my Dart off a K-car, and I'd say it's about the perfect size... if you use two of the little beasties! For a single turbo, you'll be happier with something bigger. The stock Grand National turbo is one of the few junkyard turbos big enough to feed a slant six comfortably.

The MegaManual can seem a bit intimidating at first glance, but it may help to slow down and focus on one section at a time. Such as figuring out what sort of injectors you want, and reading and re-reading that section unitl you've figured it out. Take it one step at a time.

The way the VE table works is that Megasquirt calculates how much air a "perfect" engine would pull in at that RPM, air pressure, and air temperature, and how much fuel it would inject to get a 14.7 air fuel ratio - then it multiplies how much fuel to inject by the percentage it finds in the VE table. If the VE table confuses you, just remember: Bigger number = add more fuel.

If you want a relatively easy read on EFI, search for Jeff Hartman's book on the subject. It's a pretty good introduction.

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"Mad Scientist" Matt Cramer
'66 Dart - turbocharged 225
My blog - Mad Scientist Matt's Lair

with all this turbo talk i wanna get a six and turbo that, sounds really fun

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Cuda Progress
The dart as it sits now

Bigger Trim = bigger turbo. Take the TO4E turbo, it comes in a few differnt trims 40, 46,48,50,57 & 60 ( there may be more but this is the main ones. Each one puts out a little more air than the one before. Now that is on the Compressor side(intake). One the Exhaust side they also have differnt size wheels, basically the normal wheel, and then the Stage Three & stage Five wheels. The bigger the exhaust wheel the more HP, but it takes longer to spool. But on the /6 you would want the Stage 5 wheel, it will spool it fine. Now A/R size for the housings, this is most important on the exhaust side. It is the same, the bigger the number the more exhaust it will flow, but the same thing ( it is at the expeince of spool) The TO4E only has a few choices for exhaust housings, you want one of the big ones for the /6.


Then the next step in turbos is the T series turbos aka T67, T61 ect,ect . They are a bigger fram turbo (T3, T4 & T6 ) is the frame sizes. You want to be carefull if choising a T series turbo for a /6. It will be easy to get to big. But it is possible to use a big one.

Cammeron Tilley has made around 700hp out of his /6. Ofcourse this is with race gas & a good motor. But not all that much off a motor to tell the truth. He used the stock rods fixed the way we described ( shot peen & ARP bolts), factory crank & the Venola pistons. I think his head flowed more than most people get a head to flow which helps.

But a 500hp /6 is doable. The bottom end done the way described plus a good head and the right cam. Alot of the power of a turbo system is dictated by the intake & exhaust manifold. Build a good EFI intake and a good set of tube headers for the turbo to mount on will help a lot. After xmas I will be building some turbo kits and can offer you pics of them to help if you wish. A T67 ball bearing turbo would be a good turbo to use for going for 500hp. It would require a 3000 to 3400 stall convertor to use effective but would work good. How much HP you could make on pump gas with this setup I am not sure. But between 350 & 500hp would be my guess ( atleast 300 to 350 with low boost - 10 to 14 psi. But with the right tunning it may go as high as 18 to 20 psi on pump gas. Then if you dare you could put race gas in and it would have the ability to reach 700hp with this turbo. To even atempt to run a /6 like this you would want to use ARP main & head studs also. And I think it would pay to go as far as taking the crank & block & rods and having them cyro treated.


But trying to run on pump gas you want a bigger turbo than your goals are. The bigger the turbo the cooler the air is and you can move a lot of air at low boost. Because as someone meantioned its not the HP or the boost that regulates how much you can run. It is detination & pinging. And pushing a small turbo will cause this real bad and hold you back alot because the harder you compress the air the hotter it gets. Combustion chamber of the engine has alot to do with it also. You can do things like have the tops of the pistons & the head chamber coated with ceramics and it will help keep from detinating some.

The main thing is to do your research ( which you seem to be doing) and take your time. Be honest about your budget & goals ( its easy to get cought up in all the big numbers ) and try not to go for more than you need or can afford, and be patient and get what you need to do the job(dont scimp). Once you get a system & engine built it is easy to upgrade to bigger turbo latter on. And one thing you will find real quick is that even if you made 400hp with a good setup you will find that other parts of the car will need attention & money spent. So a build that you got 350hp on pump gas would be a good place to start, this would still allow you to put race gas in an turn up to 500hp. The TO4E 60 trim with a Stage5 exhaust would be a good cheap turbo to do this with. Then once you mastered this you could change the flang on your exhaust and go to a T series turbo and move on up the latter. But small steps is the way to acomplish this and not destroy you build. The more power you make the smaller the mistake it takes to smoke the engine or the car. Oil under the tires from a blown motor has killed a many of racer. So like I said dont scimp. But build you a good motor ( designed for a turbo) then build your EFI system with a good enough fuel system to support your goals. After you have achived this then you could add the turbo.



Jess

Ya I know... But it's just too tempting to add the turbo first and have some fun!!

You are completely correct though. I learned to prioritize when I added on to my shop and installed a paint booth. You can't have everything you want right away if your on a budget. However it is good to have a long range goal and make sure you don't do something early on that will cost you more in the end.

Thanks,
Chris

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