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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2002 2:58 pm 
The other 6 forum has some messages talking about using co-ax cable for spark plug wires. anyone have any thoughts about this ? Without having to worry about header heat this seems feasable. Wouldn't this wire be RF proof ? With a solid conductor it should be low impedence too.
Just another goofy question,
motorhedfred

motorhedfred@yahoo.com


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2002 12:36 pm 
Quote:
: The other 6 forum has some messages talking
: about using co-ax cable for spark plug
: wires. anyone have any thoughts about this ?
: Without having to worry about header heat
: this seems feasable. Wouldn't this wire be
: RF proof ? With a solid conductor it should
: be low impedence too.


All the coax cable I'm aware of designed to handle the voltages encountered in an ignition system are very expensive, and large diameter. For the RF supression to work, the outer conductor has to be grounded. Having a grounded outer conductor the entire length of the cable, from the distributor to the spark plug requires good insulation between it and the center conductor.

Good after market ignition wires have lower resistance than the stock, or cheap off-the-shelf replacement, ignition cables.

If coax ignition cables were a good idea, MSD, Jacobs, Taylor, or someone would be selling them.

Dave

dwordinger@earrthlink.net


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2002 1:26 pm 
Quote:
: All the coax cable I'm aware of designed to
: handle the voltages encountered in an
: ignition system are very expensive, and
: large diameter. For the RF supression to
: work, the outer conductor has to be
: grounded. Having a grounded outer conductor
: the entire length of the cable, from the
: distributor to the spark plug requires good
: insulation between it and the center
: conductor.
:
: Good after market ignition wires have lower
: resistance than the stock, or cheap
: off-the-shelf replacement, ignition cables.
:
: If coax ignition cables were a good idea, MSD,
: Jacobs, Taylor, or someone would be selling
: them.


I would think all those innovative racers out there would be using home made coax wires if there was a benifit in doing so.
I have to say that I look at a lot of racecars / race engines and don't remember seeing any with wires that look like the stuff running into my TV.
DD


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2002 1:33 pm 
Quote:
: All the coax cable I'm aware of designed to
: handle the voltages encountered in an
: ignition system are very expensive, and
: large diameter. For the RF supression to
: work, the outer conductor has to be
: grounded. Having a grounded outer conductor
: the entire length of the cable, from the
: distributor to the spark plug requires good
: insulation between it and the center
: conductor.
:
: Good after market ignition wires have lower
: resistance than the stock, or cheap
: off-the-shelf replacement, ignition cables.
:
: If coax ignition cables were a good idea, MSD,
: Jacobs, Taylor, or someone would be selling
: them.
:
: Dave


I think the bottom line is that it's a lot of work to save maybe $15-20... Plus, some ignition systems say not to use solid core wires.

I believe RF suppression will still work w/o grouding but grounding will change (and likely improve) the frequency range that is filtered out.

Lou

madsenl@its.caltech.edu


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2002 3:17 am 
Hi folks

I read an article on that kind of wire a while ago. It was in a oldtimer mag. I will try to find that article, but for now I can tell that they compared expensive ones and home-made ones. They simply sliced an old industrial data cable and took the wire net (I don´t know the term for it right now) and put that net around a cheapo ign cable, then grounded the net at the plug side to the block. As far as I can remember the car was a mid60 with breaker ign and they noticed a difference to the old wires, but no difference between the aftermaket and the home made. On a test bench, the wire net made the spark much hotter. It had something to do with the capacity of the cable.

charged@cityweb.de


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2002 6:45 am 
Quote:
: Hi folks
:
: I read an article on that kind of wire a while
: ago. It was in a oldtimer mag. I will try to
: find that article, but for now I can tell
: that they compared expensive ones and
: home-made ones. They simply sliced an old
: industrial data cable and took the wire net
: (I don´t know the term for it right now) and
: put that net around a cheapo ign cable, then
: grounded the net at the plug side to the
: block. As far as I can remember the car was
: a mid60 with breaker ign and they noticed a
: difference to the old wires, but no
: difference between the aftermaket and the
: home made. On a test bench, the wire net
: made the spark much hotter. It had something
: to do with the capacity of the cable.


here's what was on the other forum....
"Anybody out there tried using 8mm coax cable for ignition wires? I've used coax for years to make ignition wires and they work great. 8mm solid core wire with the wire braid shielding - no RFI and LOTS of spark. WAY inexpensive. They're semi-rigid so you can actually "bend" them so that none of them touch one another, eliminating any possiblity of cross-fire bleed without needing wire looms, AND I've never had a set wear out. Put em on once and never worry about whether your wires are firing again.".....and..

"But someone else on another thread discussing this subject suggested using coax computer networking cable instead of coax TV cable cause TV cable is rated @ 75ohms and network cable is rated @ 50ohms. Makes sense to me. Any other comments or observations? ( BTW, MSD rates their top plug wires @ 40-50ohms.)".
I guess my idea was for a stock looking stealth wire that performs like the the high zoot phat aftermarket wires.
motorhedfred



motorhedfred@yahoo.com


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2002 1:42 pm 
Quote:
: I've used coax for
: years to make ignition wires and they work
: great. 8mm solid core wire with the wire
: braid shielding - no RFI and LOTS of spark.
: WAY inexpensive. They're semi-rigid so you
: can actually "bend" them so that
: none of them touch one another, eliminating
: any possiblity of cross-fire bleed without
: needing wire looms, AND I've never had a set
: wear out. Put em on once and never worry
: about whether your wires are firing
: again.".....and..
:
: TV cable is rated @ 75ohms and
: network cable is rated @ 50ohms. Makes sense
: to me. Any other comments or observations? (
: BTW, MSD rates their top plug wires @
: 40-50ohms.)".


The 75 and 50 Ohms are not resistance, but impedance at the high frequencies the cables are designed to carry. If you measure the resistance with an ohm meter, it will probably be less than 1 Ohm, and at least no more than good aftermarket ignition cables.

Stock ignition wire is the cheapest thing that will do the job. It is not supprising replacement with any kind of solid copper conductor will be an improvement. I've never seen anything to imply any kind of coax is an improvement over good aftermarket cables.

I've never tried using coax, so I can't argue with anyone who says it works and lasts, but I must wonder how long they last. Coax cable wasn't designed to with stand the high voltages of an ignition circuit. Over time, the insulation will break down. I just don't how long. The person using the coax also states it is stiff. That gives him the advantage of being able to bend it the way he wants, but also means engine movement is flexing and fatiguing the cable. This will eventually lead to breakage, but again, I just don't know how long it will take.

If this stuff worked, the big bucks racers would be using it, but like Doug wrote, I've never seen any evidence it.

If anyone has some real data, like dyno numbers or 1/4 mile times, I'm sure we would all like to see it.

Dave W


dwordinger@earrthlink.net


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2002 2:59 pm 
Why would the wire have any significant flex if they're always in the same location relative to the distributor and head ? Engine vibration ? I think a good wire seperator would take care of that "problem". It's no secret that the aftermarket isn't always the last word on what will and won't work. It's not that I'm stuck on using this stuff exclusively, but thinking outside the box can't hurt. That's all I have to say on this.
motorhedfred
Quote:
:
: The 75 and 50 Ohms are not resistance, but
: impedance at the high frequencies the cables
: are designed to carry. If you measure the
: resistance with an ohm meter, it will
: probably be less than 1 Ohm, and at least no
: more than good aftermarket ignition cables.
:
: Stock ignition wire is the cheapest thing that
: will do the job. It is not supprising
: replacement with any kind of solid copper
: conductor will be an improvement. I've never
: seen anything to imply any kind of coax is
: an improvement over good aftermarket cables.
:
: I've never tried using coax, so I can't argue
: with anyone who says it works and lasts, but
: I must wonder how long they last. Coax cable
: wasn't designed to with stand the high
: voltages of an ignition circuit. Over time,
: the insulation will break down. I just don't
: how long. The person using the coax also
: states it is stiff. That gives him the
: advantage of being able to bend it the way
: he wants, but also means engine movement is
: flexing and fatiguing the cable. This will
: eventually lead to breakage, but again, I
: just don't know how long it will take.
:
: If this stuff worked, the big bucks racers
: would be using it, but like Doug wrote, I've
: never seen any evidence it.
:
: If anyone has some real data, like dyno numbers
: or 1/4 mile times, I'm sure we would all
: like to see it.
:
: Dave W



motorhedfred@yahoo.com


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2002 12:17 pm 
Quote:
: Why would the wire have any significant flex if
: they're always in the same location relative
: to the distributor and head ? Engine
: vibration ?


Yes
:
: I think a good wire seperator
: would take care of that "problem".

It would certainly help.
:
: It's no secret that the aftermarket isn't
: always the last word on what will and won't
: work. It's not that I'm stuck on using this
: stuff exclusively, but thinking outside the
: box can't hurt.

True. Changing spark plug wires doesn't take long. Next time at the track, make a couple passes with the coax, and then with "regular" wires, and let us know the results.

Dave W

dwordinger@earrthlink.net


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