i am looking into getting something to tune the carb with and have been looking at different units available. i have heard great things about Innovate's LM-1 and i like its ability to datalog. but i don't like the price tag($350).

as i was flipping through the summit catalog, i found a unit made by NGK. while it does not have the features of the LM-1 it is more affordable($265). i also have been looking at one made by Edelbrock. again it is only a monitor, it it much more affordable the other two($130).

looking at the edelbrock, it says it displays ratios from 12:1 to 15:1 while the others show a much broader range. in my limited experiance, i would think that this is all i would need to see.

my question is this: while i know that both NGK and Innovate both use a wide band sensor, i am not clear on the Edelbrock. because of its price, i would assume that it uses a narrow band sensor. as i plan to conert to fuel injection someday soon, would the Edelbrock work ok on a carb, assuming that it uses a narrow band senor?

while i don't have a problem spending money to get what i need, i don't want to buy more than i need. but i do want to get the right tool for the job.

Innovate
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetai ... toview=sku

Edelbrock
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetai ... toview=sku

NGK
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetai ... toview=sku

zedpapa

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1970 dodge dart w/225 /6 bored .040" over, holley 390cfm w/vac. sec., compcams 252s, clifford shorty headers w/2.5" exhaust w/flowmaster, f-body 11" front discs, aluminum A-833OD, 8 1/4 w/3.21 SG
soon to have 5 gears!!!

The pic of the edelbrock shows 3 wires coming out, 2 white and one black - this is narrowband, the white is the heater and black is the output.

Even though the flimsy looking housing has leds for 12-15 narrow bands will only be accurate ~14.7:1 stoich, then tell you either lean or rich. For general tuning they do the job, but say you want to be able to set the difference between 12:1 and 13:1 - a narrow band won't be of too much help here.

Check the innovate LC-1 - last I recall it was ~200 - wideband sensor and controller, you can hook the controller up to computer to do the datalogging. The LC-1 also can be programmed to work with the inexpensive LED afr gauges designed for narrowbands if you want to see something in the car w/o using laptop.

The Edelbrock is definitely a narrow band system. You can get about the same results from any other LED oxygen gauge paired with an off the shelf oxygen sensor.

I'm running an Innovate LC-1 myself. It doesn't have data logging or a built in display, but it's a lot cheaper than an LM-1 and can work with either Innovate's own gauges (there are now four different models) or many aftermarket LED gauges. I have mine hooked to a cheap Summit house brand 10 bar gauge right now, but I'm probably going to swap to one of Innovate's analog designs for aesthetics soon.

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"Mad Scientist" Matt Cramer
'66 Dart - turbocharged 225
My blog - Mad Scientist Matt's Lair

Matt it doesn't have any built in logging but correct me if im wrong, you can log with the serial port connected to a computer via software?

that looks more like what i was looking for. thanks for the help guys.

i saw that it has 2 programmable outputs. what are those for and what could be put on them?

zedpapa

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1970 dodge dart w/225 /6 bored .040" over, holley 390cfm w/vac. sec., compcams 252s, clifford shorty headers w/2.5" exhaust w/flowmaster, f-body 11" front discs, aluminum A-833OD, 8 1/4 w/3.21 SG
soon to have 5 gears!!!

How do you get any of these wide band gauges to data log without the out put from the other sensors? It must either take the info from the ECU, or tap into existing sensors somehow. I have only briefly looked at the software that came with my Inovate gauge, and it was not clear at a glance.

Sam

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The outputs work like this....

They are linear, but you can set the endpoints. For example, if you want it to mimmick a narrowband sensor output so you can use narrowband gauges, you can program one output to do 0v @10afr, 1v @ 20afr.

Then, say you are using an efi computer that needs wideband input 0-5v. You can program this output to show 0v @20afr, 5v@10afr or whatever your computer takes.

Sam, they just log afr against time. Innovate makes other adapters such so you can monitor map, tps, temp, etc at the same time if you wish. Pretty much a megasquirt without the injector section. It would be cheaper to just buy a megasquirt though and only hookup the sensors then use the megasquirt software to capture everything.

The Accel has a nice data logging program. And the Innovate has a data logging software program. So the question is, can you comibine the two data sheets in some way? Inovate shows sample data sheets in their literature that has AF, map, VE, ECT, etc, all against time in the same chart. I haven't read how they do that yet. Was just hoping someone here already had that figured out. Maybe you are right. Maybe you need another module to get that going. I don't have my Inovate gauge installed yet, and won;t untill I work out alot of details on the new dashboard.
Sam

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They can connect to a gauge, or to an ECU with the capability to read a wideband.
It should be pretty easy to get the Accel DFI system to read the air-fuel ratio from one of the LC-1's analog outputs. Then you can use the Accel data logger to see all the data at once. This would be the easy way.

On the other hand, Innovate's LogWorks can work with a handful of ECUs; right now it looks like it can read data from a Megasquirt or an Xede, but not an Accel. So in order to use LogWorks to read other variables, you would need extra data logging boxes to capture these inputs.

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"Mad Scientist" Matt Cramer
'66 Dart - turbocharged 225
My blog - Mad Scientist Matt's Lair

The LM-1 has an optional(as in more money) RPM input for datalogging on ur computer. supposed to be a nice piece. it also has a built in display if u don't have a gauge. The LC-1 does not have a serial connection, it has outputs that can be connected to some EFI tuning and control programs. it is just a sensor and output wires

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'99 T/A
plannin out a 64-66 turbo SL6 barracuda

Actually, the LC-1 does have a serial connection - it isn't something you would use quite as often as an LM-1's, but it's there. It uses the serial connection for the XD-16 gauge and you can daisy chain it to other Innovate devices.

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"Mad Scientist" Matt Cramer
'66 Dart - turbocharged 225
My blog - Mad Scientist Matt's Lair

You program the LC-1 through its serial port.... its not a typical DB9 connector, theres an adapter included in the kit to convert its round plug (like a mini earphone plug) to the db9.

Do the wideband sensor controllers average the AF ratio over a certain time period, or do they run real time?

The reason I ask is when you're in closed-loop, the AF ratio dithers around 14.7 due to control logic of the ECU.

I'm wondering if you see this slight movement, or does it average it out...

(I ran into a slight problem monitoring my truck which is EFI with a narrowband..... it seemed to be registering only the peak voltage using a digital voltmeter (no problem when I tuned my motorcycle with a carb and no feedback), then under WOT the readings didn't make any sense)

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Ed
64 Valiant 225 / 904 / 42:1 manual steering / 9" drum brakes

With the LC-1 you have the option of making it real time, update every 1/12th second, update every <insert time period I forgot>. Theres like 3 or 4 options in fractions of a second. I belive this is to help ecu's cope with a signal that may be changing to fast for its input circuitry to read properly.

The thing with narrowbands is that around stoich they alternate between 0v and 1v quickly, they really never produce a solid 0.5v GM computers call it "cross counts". If the average over a period of time is 0.5v and the crosscounts are 10, it considers that a better tune then if the average was 0.5 and crosscounts were only 5.

If you hook them up to a scope even if your engine is running 100% stable 14.7afr they will still alternate rapidly between 0v and 1v. Just way too fast for your dmm to pick up.

OEM ecu's w/narrowbands don't run closed loop under WOT, just use a predetermined "rich" value for fuel delivery as you can't rely on a narrowband to tell you exactly how rich.

Ems, I am begining to think closed loop is not really all that good an idea for anyone who cares enough to tune their own car, and pays attention to it. I have yet to run this in closed loop, and am getting excellent results. I have been tuning individual cells while cruising, and getting it to where it runs very stabley at the AF ratios I have chosen to shoot for. There is no bouncing back and forth to speak of. It sits right dead on the AF ratio desired. I think closed loop is likely for those not in touch with their car, and to guarantee, more or less, that they will stay within emissions specs for those who don;t want to think about their cars and how they are running. .

Sam

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