Wizard, I don't discount your advice out of hand, but I can set my warmup curve to any spec I want. I used to have the ECU ECT sensor in the head, and just the opposite problem seemed to crop up. Since the head on this engine seems to come up to temp so fast, The ECU can interpret the temp as being warmer than the engine is functionally. Either way you look at it, at least for awhile, there is a big difference in temp between the head and the block.

That being said, as it stands, I have the enrichment coefficient all programed out by 164 ECT as read in the block. So its location should not be a problem. I set it this way because the head is at 180 at this point. I also programed it this way because I was simply trying to keep the AF ratio around 14.7:1 during warm up. I have played with the timing/ECT curve as well, but don;t have a strong feel about how any of this affects the way it drives. During the Summer the engine felt like it had a "too much advance " miss at higher RPM, low load (low KPA map reading) at 164ECT, so I tweaked the timing ECT curve to take timing out between 164 and 180 degrees, and then put it back in when the block ETC got to 180 or so, which is when the miss goes away.

Like I say, I can make this curve anything I want, so I should be able to get what I want with the sensor in the block, IF I know what I want. That is what I need to figure out. I need to figure out how I want the warm up curves to be shaped. Since I have a temp head sensor as well, I can easily translate what my block sensor is telling me into head temp readings and set the tunining accordingly.

However, as things are now, the thermostat is not opening at all, as nothing in the engine has gotten to 195 in the colder weather. This was why I wanted to block a part of the radiator in the winter. I think it is too big for winter driving.

Dan, I went to Carquest, and they have the Standard-Bluestreak parts but in Carquest boxes. They have the same part number, execpt they leave off the X, which designates it as having the Factory box. The part number is ch410. It has the vent, and copper buttons and wire contacts. I went ahead and bought it. Let me know if you think they are really different parts, but the man behind the counter said they were the same. It would be great if all this turned out to be low tech, standard tune up problems. When the wires arrive, I will give it a basic tune up.

When the wires went bad on my Daughter's Honda, I pulled the boots up, and loked down into the spark plug tube as it was running. I could see the spark jumping from the spark plug over to the head through the insulation. I don;t know if you remember, but the spark plug wires on my Dart were all bundled together in a way that would make this kind of misfiring more likely to happen. And you might not even be able to see any light show from it. This was just something I never got around to changing. I remember that my old Mopar minvan had a distributor cap on it that would allow one of the wire towers to arc across to the block only when it was damp. I am hoping changing the cap and wires this will fix the Dart. But thanks for all your opinions. Nothing is discounted in my mind. All cards are still on the table.

Sam

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Howdy again, Sam. That "X" is important. If the cap is made out of blue material, you're all set. If it's black, it's not the one you want.

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一期一会
Too many people who were born on third base actually believe they've hit a triple.

Hi Dan, It is black. What terrible things happen with the black cap? Will it work for awhile. I hate to put the old one back on. I had drilled a hole in the top of the old one at some point in the past. My Magnacor wires came, and I was in the middle of getting this all on when I discovered that the pick up wires had been pinched.

When I removed the distributor cap and wires, I discovered that the pick up wires had gotten trapped under the cap, and were smashed pretty much flat. I am going to strip the insulation off now and see how many strands of wire were left connected. This so-called speed shop that got it running 16 months ago put the distributor together, and I never really looked at what they had done. They put a pick up in that had no gromets on the pickup tails. Also, there was no plug in the other pick-up hole for a dual pickup set up. So not only was the wire smashed,but the distributor body had two openings to the outside for what that is worth.

It is still a mystery to me why the current distributor that the speed shop put in worked when the one that I put in it did not. What can go wrong with these things that a new pick up and dizzy will not fix.? Both those items were new, and set to spec, back when the ECU could not see a signal from it. I am getting that sinking deja-vu feeling here. It scares me to dig into something that was such a source of frustration before. The distributor I had used was an old truck unit for the lean burn system. They put back in an older standard electronic ignition unit and locked out the advance by drilling through the plate and driving a screw into it so it could not rotate. It really looks cheap and temporary, but seems to work.

My approach here is to solder new pig tails on the current pickup rather than put a new one in, simply because I know this set up does deliver an adequate signal for the ECU to read it. I have another pickup with the proper gromet on it which I plan on cutting off and soldering on the one in the distributor now. Does that seem dumb?

Sam

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Nothing terrible, no, but the blue cap is made out of better materials (better dielectric performance for increased resistance to the spark travelling where it shouldn't go, for instance). *Sigh* I really hate it when salesmen tell stupid lies because they want rid of you and think they'll get away with it. The CarQuest system does too have X- and non-X parts, and they work exactly the same way as they do under Standard's own numerology: The X-parts are the premium parts, and the non-X parts are the "consumer grade" items.
Mmmm...nothing.
Bad new pickup?

H'mmm. Seems like less work to swap in the other pickup...

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一期一会
Too many people who were born on third base actually believe they've hit a triple.

You may want to find ANOTHER temp coolant sensor that is plastic or have extended tip so it's impinging on the coolant flow at the thermostat.

Computer expects coolant temp sensor at specific location due to internal programming.

If you are getting odd issues with sensor at the head, readjust the enrichment ratios and coolant temp switch over point to get it right.

I know this because the engine performs best when head finally starts to heat up and computer needs to know that ASAP so it can start adjusting the fuel amount.

It takes awhile to get warmup curves right in that area. Getting it to idle after some adjusting, and adjusting stuff when hot (normal and boost) are both easy. The HARDEST and long process is adjusting just right for warm up phase.

I know this: when I fire my 2.2 up if weather is COLD enough I don't tap pedal (carb) not too soon like 10-15 seconds, it will get over the lean condition stall area (stall out if I tap too soon because head is too cold/tinisest heat of coolant under the plenum yet to heat up. I do not like FSM recommanded for 1700RPM slowest fast idle step as it meant about 2500rpm on the warp-speed warmup idle step. So I set up for 1600 which turns out to be about 2,200 rpm, just right.

I'm surprised you haven't used MS for fuel and spark. MS is very powerful device for the features it has accessible to end-user. MS II is even vastly flexible and more precise.

Cheers, Wizard

That other pic-up MIGHT(?) be the one that doesn't work. All the stuff came back in a box, and I don;t know what was good and what wasn't. I gave them about 5 distributors to play with when I gave them the car. It's done now anyway. It looks neat, and if it doesn;t work, I will go get a new one. I kind of expect it will work OK.

Sam

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It's back together, and it runs considerably better, but it is not perfect, and there is still a stumble or two in there at the critical ECT. Now we know I cannot blame it on spark plug wires or distributor cap. I can't work on the car for another two days, but I will swap in a longer plug for the next step, when I get to it. These will not be the extended tip plugs, but just stock electrode length. I may try those as well. But I want to try one thing at a time.

I think it has been a mistake to tune for leaner than 14.7:1 at this point in time, since this has messed up the warm up schedule as well. I will go back to square one, and tune for 14.8:1 on a warmed up engine, and then get back to tuning the warm up curves.

My intention is to put it into closed loop mode as soon as I get the base fuel map worked out. Does anyone know/recommend a strategy for determining what temp to let it go into closed loop? Also, any ideas about what TPS position to let it go into open loop. I have heard the manufacturers spend millions of dollars working this stuff out. I can see why now. But I am learning. Thanks to all for advice. I haven't been much help to anyone else here lately.

Sam

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Sam, I just thought of something.

Is this a heated or unheated O2 sensor? And, where in the exhaust system is it located?

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一期一会
Too many people who were born on third base actually believe they've hit a triple.

It is a heated O2 sensor, and is located right behind the turbo by about 6-8 inches. For the moment it is turned off in the system config, so I suspect it has no bearing on this problem. On the software "gauge panel" , the O2 display is greyed out.

What were you thinking about? It might be relevant for when I do turn it back on.

The magnicore wires were a huge improvement. I am thinking I should get rid of the stock coil, and get a Blaster. If you remember, I had a brand new one, and knocked it off the bench, thus rendering it suspect.
Any thoughts on the Blaster coil? How much different would it be? Can you quantify the difference, and how does that show up in performance or driveability?
Sam

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If the coil is oil filled it should be fine. With a epoxy filled one, the epoxy could have cracked and done something to the internal coil wires

Either way I'd test primary and secondary resistance against the specs.

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Ed
64 Valiant 225 / 904 / 42:1 manual steering / 9" drum brakes

Er...what? Oil-filled coils can and do fail in multiple ways. Adjacent windings can and do short to one another, etc. Furthermore, the stock points-ignition coils are a poor match for most electronic ignition systems. They usually work OK for awhile with a Mopar electronic ignition, but anything much stronger than that they don't handle well.

Given the type of system you're working with, Sam, I think my first recommendation would be an E-core coil, such as this one. But, that would cause a complication with your new spark plug wires, since your coil wire is configured for a female coil secondary terminal, and all the E-core coils I can think of have male. My second recommendation would be a can-type Blaster such as you already have on the shelf. Is there significant visible damage to the dropped Blaster coil? If not, I'd probably give it a try...

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一期一会
Too many people who were born on third base actually believe they've hit a triple.

OK, that probably means my thinking wasn't applicable (hitting a transition period where the ECU was looking at the O2S which was not yet quite warm enough to deliver an accurate signal).
To be specific? A particular O2 sensor with a high-wattage heater that heats the sensor up hotter, quicker, intended for use in "difficult" applications (O2S in a colder location than optimal, leaded fuel, etc.)

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一期一会
Too many people who were born on third base actually believe they've hit a triple.

Unless I missed something this is running open loop all the time right now?

Otherwise I would just suspect that the miss might be related to the transition to closed loop and the engine is just not warm enough yet for the program at that point. It probably wants a little more fuel and maybe a little more timing, for a little longer. There is a fair amount of cast iron and water in these engines for only 225 inches.

As long as the program is capable of dealing with the engine temp, you can go closed loop as soon as the 02 sensor heats up. That is right away with a heated sensor. It will probably be very hard to get that dialed in, so keeping the warm-up routine open loop, and then just finding the right temp to go closed will likely be your best bet. Not having to meet emissions during warmup (or at all?) makes life easier.

I really believe that 02 sensor should be in front of the turbo. Heated or not, it should be better on the hot side. I think you are only getting away with it on the outlet side because it is heated. That goes for any egt sensors as well.

In real cold weather with the heater on you may end up with the head hot and the lower block cold to he touch. This will without a doubt affect how it runs. I would consider covering at least part of the radiator. I have had cars where the heater would stop putting out heat when going down hill and the temp would drop down almost to 100 because it was so cold out side.

Have you tried turning the heater off during the warm up to see if this helps with the miss? It might get the thermostat open and move some warm water thru the block. But then, it might need nothing more than some cover on the radiator.

Errrr ..... I was talking about the dropped coil......

A drop is less likely to damage an oil filled coil than epoxy.

(I agree about the failure modes of coils)

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Ed
64 Valiant 225 / 904 / 42:1 manual steering / 9" drum brakes

I should just throw this coil away, and get another Blaster. They are not that expensive. It has a dent on one corner. It fell from the bench and hit with a pretty solid thunk, followed by a few choice words belittling my own heritage and such. It was brand new, and never used. I installed it anyway, but it was part of the combination that did not work 16 months ago.

My next step is to replace the plugs with standard tip plugs. Then, if that does not fix it, perhaps put the ZFR5N back in.

Basic fuel map tuning is in order too. I got a little off track here tuning it lean in the Summer because it ran so well that way.

Sam

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