I have an innovate wideband lc1 kit in my car... this is the 2nd sensor I've had to replace since I had the kit, maybe 2-3 years?

I have the clifford shorty headers joined into a Y and the sensor is a couple inches past the transmission. Its at about 6 o'clock with a very slight upward tilt (wire pointing a bit down toward the ground).

I know, bad to have upward tilt for condensation issues... I think thats what may be causing the premature death of it.

I can reposition the bung a little but I was thinking... the only reason I put it there originally was because it was after the Y so it can see both sets of cylinders. I thought this was important but don't many OEM's with V engines use only one sensor on a bank of cylinders? If thats an ok thing to do I can put it on the pipe just after the front clifford header, that will make positioning/convinience a lot easier. I don't know what effect this will have on the readings, if any. You'd figure that each set of 3 cyl will have about the same afr, especially with mpfi. Don't know, just thinking out loud.

Will eventually convert to dual dutra duals but I don't want to kill another sensor in the meantime.

You could always put a bung (and plug) on each set and see if there are differences........

Then just leave it on one of them with the other side ready for debuging if necessary.

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Ed
64 Valiant 225 / 904 / 42:1 manual steering / 9" drum brakes

I have mine much closer to the engine on both Darts. On the 64 with Clif shorties, It's in the header collector, pointing straight up. On the 68 with Dutra Duals, it's about 8" down the head pipe from the manifold on the front bank of cylinders.

Lou

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Home of Slant6-powered fun machines since 1988

Lou, and this is a lsu4.2 wideband, or standard narrowband? Narrowbands need the exhaust gas heat to function. These widebands are more sensitive to heat, which can cook them. If they are in header collectors that may be too much. They make extended bungs, hmm... Good to know though you get good results having the sensor read only 3 cylinders.

On the up side the sensor is only $50. $50 every 1 or 2 years isn't huge, but these things are supposed to have 100,000 mile life whereas I put maybe 20-25k on them.

I'm not sure I like the tilt to it either. I'd recommend moving it to a location where it's pointed down, even if that means it only sees half the cylinders. I wouldn't expect the front and rear cylinders to be any different. But putting it upstream and adding a second bank so you can switch between them would let you check. I'd move it even if you do have to put it upstream.

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"Mad Scientist" Matt Cramer
'66 Dart - turbocharged 225
My blog - Mad Scientist Matt's Lair

I agree with Matt, you dont want it pionting up for sure. It really gets bad if the car is not driven for days at a time (more condensation).


With a N/A setup (no forced induction or NOS) I would not be afriad to put it in the header collector. If it gets to hot there you can get the longer bung to help against the heat problems. Putting a bung in each collector so you can switch from side to side is a good idea also. This may help get a better tune being able to seperate the two sides from each other and check for even fuel distribution.


Just wandering about the type fuel you may be running. It has been found that switching back and forth from Race fuel (leaded fuel) to unleaded cause the sensors to die much quicker than if race fuel was run all the time. It always happens when they have run race fuel, then when they make the switch back to unleaded it die within days, or even sometimes hours.


I am sure you know, but sensor killers are, the condisation, Heat, Antyfreeze, running to cold, race fuel, and one that most dont expect is to rich a mixture of any type fuel. Never touch the eliment of the sensor either. One habit I have gotten into is to let the sensor heat up all the way before starting the car. I cant say for sure it helps but I feel like it does.


If you continue to have sensor dying problems I would switch to the NGK ( I believe thats the one). Although they cost more, they are much more durable. And I am pretty sure the LM1/LC1 can be reprogramed to work with the NGK calibration needs.


Jess

I thought the NGK was a whole different type of wideband? Or do you mean NGK makes a same equivalent part in its own brand line? Even if the LC1 could be programmed for the NGK it would be more of a hack and I really don't feel like reverse engineering the LC1 just to change sensors...

This is my daily driver, 350-400 miles a week. The most it sits idle is a 2 day weekend. I've used chevron 87 and only chevron 87 since I originally bought the car. It's not burning any oil or coolant. The silicon I use on gaskets and such I try to use the sensor safe kind.

The upward tilt is very minor, maybe 5 degrees. From what I've read, heating the sensor up before starting is not a good idea because if there is condensation that gets blown around in the pipe, you don't want it hitting a sensor thats already hot. The LC1 (and hence the sensor) gets its power from my fuel pump relay commanded by the megasquirt.

Just trying to think ahead here so I can drive my car the next day without having to do major retuning.

The NGK sensor was used in Hondas in the early '90s. It's apparently similar but not the same. They're nearly impossible to get now, but if you do find one, the LC1 manual does have a bit of info on how you could make an adapter harness.

NGK is currently selling an aftermarket wideband setup similar to the LC1 called a Powerdex. Funny thing is, it uses the same Bosch sensor as the LC1!

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"Mad Scientist" Matt Cramer
'66 Dart - turbocharged 225
My blog - Mad Scientist Matt's Lair

Ok, did some more digging - apparently its the NTK L1H1 thats more resistant to leaded fuels. I found some reference to it in a post about it needing separate firmware for the LC-1 but not sure if this was ever developed. I didn't find any reference to it in the LC-1 manual using search function in adobe reader.

But the part that kills it - $200 for the NTK, $50 for the bosch. Here is some more info on the NTK if interested.

I know the LM1 can handle the NTK sensor and has the same converter circuitry as the LC1. However, I'm not sure if the firmware is quite the same, and the LM1 uses an adapter harness instead of having the sensor plug directly in.

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"Mad Scientist" Matt Cramer
'66 Dart - turbocharged 225
My blog - Mad Scientist Matt's Lair

I have only used narrow band so far. Have a WB I want to try. Hope I don't cook it where my bungs are...

Lou

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Home of Slant6-powered fun machines since 1988

Lou, on the innovate forum I came across a post that said those bosch sensors were used in nascar headers without issues but they used the bung extenders - innovate number hbx-1 something like $80. Its a fancy machined piece that screws into the existing bung, then about 1.5" higher the sensor screws into it. Can probably weld some nuts or cut up sparkplug antifoulers and get same result. They also have a plain, longer then normal bung on their site for a more reasonable $12.

Saw another case where on a motor cycle right at the exhaust port before the first bend of the tube.

You can make your own heatsink out of copper plate as well. Heat is an enemy you can deal with after the fact if its placed too close. Angle is the critical thing to watch it seems.

You can buy those extenders at Pep Boys for about $3. They are called spark plug extenders to avoid fouling your plugs. They are the same exact part as near as I can tell. They come in several lengths. YOu will find them hanging in the Help section.

Lou, that wide band kit you have may have a defective sensor. It ran in an overly rich envronment for a long time. It seemed to read correctly after it got really warmed up, but went off-the-scale lean when it was first started. That is to say, when warmed up fully, it's readings were supported by the narrow band readings.

Sam

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